Author Topic: One step forward...  (Read 2087 times)

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Offline Lido

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One step forward...
« on: June 02, 2006, 01:25:37 AM »
...two steps back.

I made some great progress on getting a softer crust by reading here and had got to the point where I could use either 00 flour or AP flour and be happy with the results.  Then I got to reading the guy from Atlanta's page where he talks about how proper mixing matters more than flour and thought I'd try to improve things a bit more.  Last week I tried the autolyze step as he suggested along with a 20 minutes "rest" after kneading.  After the 20 minutes rest, it looked like the dough had risen quite a bit but I put it into tupperware and put it in the fridge.  Two days later I used it but it didn't handle as well as the dough I had been making with no autolyze and rest steps.  The dough was harder to work and tore when I stretched it.  I'm guessing that I let it rest too long or that I kneaded it for too long.  So last night I tried again, but skipped the post kneading rest period and just put the (lightly oiled) doughs into tupperware and into the fridge right after kneading.  When I looked at the dough this morning, it looked like it had risen in the fridge.  Hopefully the dough isn't going to be as bad as last time, but I'm wondering.  Here is my process:

Put 3/4 of the flour and the yeast into the mixer and mix it up for a minute.
Pour in the salted water.
Mix at low speed for three-five minutes.
Rest/autolyze for 15 - 20 minutes.
Turn the mixer back on for another 10 minutes and slowly mix in the rest of the flour.
Knead a bit by hand and divide the dough into portions.
oil lightly, put in tupperware, put in fridge.

Here's a photo of the dough this morning:
- Lido


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2006, 10:19:53 AM »
Lido,

I think it would help to know what precise formulation or recipe you used, including the type of flour, that produced the unsatisfactory results. As pizzanapoletana (Marco) has pointed out before (most recently when I used his basic processing steps for a 00 dough but used the San Felice flour), you can't simply take one dough making methodology using a particular flour and set of processing steps and apply it to a new flour with different characteristics without making other changes. There has to be the proper balance and relationship between the flour (and other ingredients) and processes used.

I may be wrong, but just looking at the photo you provided it seems to me that the dough may have been underhydrated. Usually a dough that is properly hydrated and smooth when it goes into its container will remain smooth after it starts to expand. It won't usually have cracks, dimples, crevices and other surface irregularities such as shown in your photo. If you'd care to provide the precise recipe you used for the dough shown in the photo it may be possible to make a connection.

Peter

Offline Lido

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2006, 10:35:10 AM »
The formulation was the same that I had been using successfully for a few months.  The only change was to add the autolyze and rest (and then for the dough in the photo, just the autolyze).  The dough seemed smooth when I put it into the container.

3 1/2 cups 00 Molino Bortignon
2/3 tsp IDY
1 cup water
1 tsp salt
- Lido

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2006, 03:25:45 PM »
Lido,

Since you are using volume measurements and a brand of 00 flour that I have not used, it is hard to say with exactitude what the hydration ratio is for your formulation. However, If I measure out a cup of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour by dipping a spoon into the flour bag to fill up the measuring cup to overflowing and then levelling off the top, I get 4.6 ounces for that cup (see, for example, Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2811.msg24540.html#msg24540). For 3 1/2 cups, that would be 16.1 ounces. A cup of water technically weighs 8.33 ounces, but most people who measure a cup of water by eye and take note of the 1-cup marking will usually get between 8.0 and 8.2 ounces. This range places the hydration at between 50% on the low side and 51.7% on the high side. I have seen such hydration ratios for Neapolitan style doughs before but something closer to 54-55% seems to be more normal and close to the absorption rate specified for a 00 flour such as the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. I personally try to get as close to 60% as I can. Adding and stirring in the flour gradually and using autolyse/rest periods will usually help you get to such higher hydration ratios. In your case, unless you add some oil to your dough formulation or you are using a natural preferment and very long fermentation times, you may want to aim for around 55-57% hydration.

You didn't indicate whether you tweak the flour and/or water before you finish the dough so it is possible that my numbers are off. However, most people who measure out volumes of flour by eye will usually err on the high side (5+ ounce "cups" are quite common), resulting in even lower hydration levels. It's also possible that your brand of 00 flour weighs less than the Caputo 00 flour. I also use the Bel Aria brand of 00 flour, which is a lower protein flour, and a cup measured as described above comes to about 4.35 ounces. It is also a lower hydration flour.

I might also add that I reverse the flour/water sequence you use and add the flour to the water. I also rarely find a need to use 10 minutes of kneading, even at the Stir speed of my KitchenAid mixer. I knead just until the dough comes away from the side of the bowl and is otherwise smooth and a bit tacky. Technically, an autolyse or similar rest period is intended to shorten the overall knead time. In that context, 10 minutes of kneading seems long to me.

I'd be interested in learning of the results of your latest effort.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 02, 2006, 03:59:50 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Lido

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2006, 05:21:08 PM »
I think I measure a little light on the flour (I pour it into the measuring cup and then level it off without tamping or shaking).  At the end I do sometimes add a bit more flour if the dough is too wet, but never water.  Do you mean you'd like to hear how the pizza that comes from the dough pictured above comes out or how things work out next time?  I'll post as soon as I make something with that dough.  It's been in the fridge almost 2 days so I will hopefully get to it this weekend.
- Lido

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2006, 05:32:22 PM »
Lido,

I'll take whatever you care to give. I'm always happy to get feedback on what I write because I usually learn a lot from it, especially if I can link cause and effect.

Peter

Offline Lido

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2006, 08:01:19 AM »
Ok, I'm going to post the photos from this batch of dough disussed above.  When I opened the tupperware it seemed just like last time.  Risen and fallen dough and stuck to the inside of the tupperware even though I oiled it more than last time and also oiled it more than I ever do when I use plastic bags (and it never seems to stick in the plastic bag for some reason).  This time, after taking out of the fridge, I let it rise on a cutting board (covered) for about two hours (as opposed to one hour last time) before I touched it so it actually seemed to rise a bit and felt really soft when I started to work with it.  It was really loose and stretched ok (though I got one pinhole that I had to pinch).  It stuck to the board and the peel because there was a wet patch in the dough, possibly due to condensation in the tupperware building up.  But all in all it wasn't bad.  Probably the best dough of the past four pizzas I've had in the past four days (from three different pizzarias on thurs, fri and sat... and this one I made today).  It didn't rise as much as some of my better doughs, but it was acceptable.  I'd really like to get the crust looking like the photos in the "My pizza in America" thread, but I guess that might not be possible if I want to stick with IDY and my home oven.  On to the photos...  This one shows the edge.  The edges weren't smooth or uniform going into the oven, so they weren't that way coming out either.  I feel like the dough was too wet, but it didn't have as many or as big bubbles as I'd like so maybe not.  Here's some info from the flour package:

Molino Bordignon
Soft wheat flour "00"
Maximum moisture 15,50%
- Lido

Offline Lido

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2006, 08:05:23 AM »
The whole pie:
- Lido

Offline Lido

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Re: One step forward...
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2006, 08:07:14 AM »
Detail from cut piece:
- Lido