Author Topic: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?  (Read 564 times)

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Offline axbman

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Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« on: February 25, 2014, 01:51:31 AM »
I've been talking with my boss for a while about possible ways to change the dough the make our product better. One of the things we got into was the helpfulness of the dough rest period. We hold our dough for pretty long periods of time, so there was some thought that the autolysis period was unnecessary, but I also wonder if that hydration period absolutely has to be upfront. I've done some searches and it seems to be that there is no definitive answer but I would love any input.


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 05:48:32 PM »
Can you tell us what specific aspects of the product you are trying to improve?

John

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2014, 09:38:07 PM »
I've been talking with my boss for a while about possible ways to change the dough the make our product better. One of the things we got into was the helpfulness of the dough rest period. We hold our dough for pretty long periods of time, so there was some thought that the autolysis period was unnecessary, but I also wonder if that hydration period absolutely has to be upfront. I've done some searches and it seems to be that there is no definitive answer but I would love any input.

In my opinion, an autolyse is completely unnecessary for a dough that is going to rest for a day or more, as is very much mixing/kneading. Time is your friend. Let it work for you.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2014, 09:45:31 PM »
axbman,

Can you tell us how you are defining autolyse?

Peter

Offline axbman

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2014, 12:43:41 AM »
john - we're considering getting rid of the rest period just to expedite the dough-making process. i've read people argue that the autolyse rest helps the dough keep hydration better, and reduce the amount of kneading required for the same strength of gluten networks.

peter - i mean autolyse as post-mix, pre-knead rest. having gone to the extreme level of looking up autolysis on wikipedia, i understand that it's technically enzymatic self-digestion... which i think is mostly relevant to dough because it could mean better development/networking of dough proteins with less kneading.


Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2014, 07:37:55 AM »
john - we're considering getting rid of the rest period just to expedite the dough-making process. i've read people argue that the autolyse rest helps the dough keep hydration better, and reduce the amount of kneading required for the same strength of gluten networks.

peter - i mean autolyse as post-mix, pre-knead rest. having gone to the extreme level of looking up autolysis on wikipedia, i understand that it's technically enzymatic self-digestion... which i think is mostly relevant to dough because it could mean better development/networking of dough proteins with less kneading.

have you experimented with doing just few stretch and folds on raw dough out of the mixer, a short bulk rise, dividing to balls, and doing a simple difabio balling process?   works fine on lower hydration (under 60%) HG doughs for me.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2014, 08:05:47 AM »
peter - i mean autolyse as post-mix, pre-knead rest. having gone to the extreme level of looking up autolysis on wikipedia, i understand that it's technically enzymatic self-digestion... which i think is mostly relevant to dough because it could mean better development/networking of dough proteins with less kneading.
axbman,

The reason why I asked you for your definition of autolyse is because technically autolyse applies to the mixing of just flour and water (and maybe a natural starter), without yeast, salt or anything else. If a true autolyse is used, then there will be no fermentation and the rest period will not affect how the dough performs thereafter from a fermentation standpoint except to the extent that the autolyse will affect the way that the dough is hydrated and is affected by the protease enzymes. Many people erroneously call the rest period after a dough has been made in the normal fashion, with yeast, an autolyse rest period. Depending on many factors, including the types and amounts of yeast, the hydration used, the ambient temperatures during the rest period, and the duration of the rest period, there can be varying degrees of fermentation during the rest period. There are some pizza operators who let their dough rest for a while before dividing and scaling, but most do not do that, in part because the commencement of fermentation can make it harder to cool the dough balls down once they go into the cooler. In my opinion, the better course for a commercial setting is to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and to use an amount of yeast such that the dough is ready to be used at a particular time each day, which is usually dictated by the business hours of the establishment when customers start to come in for pizza. 

Peter

Offline axbman

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2014, 05:18:00 PM »
c0mpl3x - i'm not sure that would work for our business purposes.

peter - i guess i should have clarified that our rest period is for 2/3 of our total flour, all of our water, and all of our salt, but none of our yeast. what is the role of protease enzymes? can not giving the dough time to hydrate before the addition of yeast and kneading period be compensated by giving it plenty of time to hydrate after?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Can long rises (3-6 days) compensate for not resting the dough?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2014, 06:08:14 PM »
peter - i guess i should have clarified that our rest period is for 2/3 of our total flour, all of our water, and all of our salt, but none of our yeast. what is the role of protease enzymes? can not giving the dough time to hydrate before the addition of yeast and kneading period be compensated by giving it plenty of time to hydrate after?

axbman,

For a discussion of the role of protease enzymes and salt in the context of an autolyzed dough, you might take a look at the post at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8576.msg74242;topicseen#msg74242 and the links reference therein.

In your case, you are not using a classic autolyse as contemplated by Prof. Calvel. By combining the flour, salt and water as you have mentioned and letting the mix rest for a period of time before adding the yeast, you will get a fairly normal hydration of the dough, and also some softening of the dough because of the action of the protease enzymes. But adding the yeast late in the dough making process will normally extend the period of fermentation. This is a technique that I believe is used by Papa John's in order to make a dough that can last from about 5-8 days of cold fermentation. In such a case, using ADY in dry form will usually promote such a long window of fermentation; using IDY, also in dry form, will work also but maybe not for a 5-8 day window of cold fermentation. So, if what you are trying to achieve is a very long window of fermentation, then adding the yeast at the end of the dough making process is one way of achieving  that. Using very low finished dough temperatures would be another way of achieving that objective. Using both the late addition of yeast and striving for a below average finished dough temperature will take the dough out even further in terms of duration of fermentation. I have used these methods to make dough that can last for a few weeks of cold fermentation and still be usable.

Peter