Author Topic: Craig's Detroit Pizza  (Read 21721 times)

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Offline Don K

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2012, 01:05:24 AM »
That closeup crumb shot looks incredible!
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2012, 08:21:32 AM »
You have yourself a new category of pizza. I love the crumb and height of the pie, and the dark, crusty exterior is so appealing. Great toppings as well.

Your pans are really good performers. I don't think my blue steel could handle 525 for that long without burning the crap out of the bottom.

John
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 10:26:54 AM by dellavecchia »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2012, 08:44:27 AM »
Thanks guys.

John, I've been surprised with the pans as well. Even at 550F, the bottom only lightly browns. I'd really like to figure out how to consistently get a darker cheese edge crust.
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Offline pizzaneer

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2012, 10:18:42 AM »
Not sure if this has been covered already, but are you baking in your kitchen or the Accunto?   If baking in your kitchen oven, are you placing the pans on a preheated stone or just the rack?

IMO, you could achieve some more crust darkness by supplying more heat to the pan via a thermal reservoir like a stone.

That said, I'm not sure why you want more edge browning.  Those pies look just about perfect to me.
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2012, 10:27:43 AM »
I'd really like to figure out how to consistently get a darker cheese edge crust.

Oil the sides of the pan? Might generate some more caramelization.

John

Offline Don K

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 10:34:09 AM »
How heavy did you put the Crisco in the pan?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 10:46:07 AM »
Not sure if this has been covered already, but are you baking in your kitchen or the Accunto?   If baking in your kitchen oven, are you placing the pans on a preheated stone or just the rack?

IMO, you could achieve some more crust darkness by supplying more heat to the pan via a thermal reservoir like a stone.

That said, I'm not sure why you want more edge browning.  Those pies look just about perfect to me.

In the oven with no stone.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 10:46:48 AM »
How heavy did you put the Crisco in the pan?

It's butter-flavored Crisco and I laid it on pretty good. It's not solid white or anything, but you can definitely see it.
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Offline timell

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 11:18:14 AM »
Craig,

Here's the results that I got last night with three different cheeses.

Three vertical stripes of cheese from left to right:  Wisconsin Brick, Mild Wisconsin Cheddar, Sharp NY Cheddar.
All purchased from Central Market, along with the VT Pepperoni :D  Raw, the Brick cheese had little flavor while the Sharp stood
out, on the baked pie, the flavors were very similar, with the sharp being most pronounced.

As you can see in the photo, the Brick browned the most while the NY Sharp did not.

525 degree oven 13min. 240g dough in an 8x8 cake pan lightly greased with Crisco.
dough recipe is basically using your percentages (80%HR w/3% ischia 36hr @RT  12hr bulk 24hr pan). 
I think the crust was a little undercooked, because I wanted a little more interior crunch and height. 
(didn't get the crumb shots as I was already eating)
The good news is that I get to try again tonight.  This time I'll place the pans on a pizza stone.

Tim

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2012, 11:32:16 AM »
I'd really like to figure out how to consistently get a darker cheese edge crust.

Craig,

You appear to have the right pans, and they apparently have been properly and adequately seasoned and you appear not to have experienced sticking problems or removing the baked pizzas from the pans, so the answer must lie elsewhere. Looking at the Via 313 Youtube video at , you will note that at about 0:26 Brandon Hunt sprinkles the cheese rather loosely and liberally around the edges of the pan. He does likewise at about 1:30 in another YouTube video, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nFthReFgxxA. We also know from the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html that Via 313 greases its pans with some form of shortening, and the shortening covers a good part of the sides of the pans. The Via 313 pizzas are baked in a countertop Bakers Pride oven, with a thin ceramic stone, at about 525 degrees for about 15 minutes.

Buddy's also places the cheese (brick cheese) around the edges of the pans before finishing dressing the pizza, as shown at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg. The pans are oiled with a vegetable oil, or a vegetable oil blend. Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor oven that is supposed to emulate the results achieved using a deck oven, which is what Buddy's used before switching to conveyor ovens. The infrared elements apparently control the top and bottom heat to achieve the desired results, including the degree to which the cheeses caramelize. Buddy's uses a bake temperature of around 495 degrees F for about 11-12 minutes. Norma's Buddy's clone pizzas have been subjected to a similar bake profile but with a somewhat higher oven temperature. She managed to get good results no matter what type of oven she used, both home ovens and her deck oven at work. She also got good results without using a stone in one of the home ovens she used (hers and her mother's).

Some members have speculated that Buddy's uses Parmesan cheese around the edges of the pans to get the caramelization effects but there has been no evidence that that is true. However, the type of cheese and its inherent caramelization characteristics may affect the degree to which the cheese caramelizes. We know that some of the other Detroit style places use cheeses other than brick cheese, including mozzarella cheese and Jack cheese, and they apparently get good caramelization of the cheese, at least from the photos I have seen (e.g., at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487).

I'm sure that you already know a lot of what is set forth above. I am only trying to frame the issue and possibly lead to something we have missed.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 07:03:49 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2012, 09:01:37 AM »
Thanks Tim. It's interesting, the brick I got from Central Market in Houston browned the least of any cheeses I've tried so far. I'm thinking there is more to it than the cheese itself.

How much dough did you use on those?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2012, 09:12:34 AM »
Thanks for that summary Peter. I had not seen those videos. That's just about exactly how I've been doing my cheese. My dough obviously is WAY different. I think I'll try a less hydrated dough and less of it and see if I can get a little closer to VIA 313. I've kind of gone off the deep end with the lift, I think. It's really good, but as John noted above, it's kind of a different style with dough like I've been making.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2012, 09:24:48 AM »
Craig,

I don’t know if this will help you at all, but for Buddy’s Half Baked pizza instructions, it says if the cheese wants to brown too much to cover with foil.  It is at the end of the pdf.

http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf

Norma
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Offline timell

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2012, 07:04:07 PM »
Craig,

You may be right with the browning due to more than just the cheese.  But for my pies last night, I again used a mix of the three and came up with similar results.  The brick was the darkest followed by the mild and finally the sharp cheddar.

The dough per pan was 240g for the 8x8 and 420g for the 8x14  (a scaled percentage of your 300g/8x12 pan)

Here's some photos of last night's results.   14min @525 degrees on a pizza stone/ bottom rack

I'm not sure but I'm wondering if the gluten is underdeveloped with those crumb photos.

Tim

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2012, 08:00:57 PM »
Tim, I think they look pretty darn good. How long did you let the dough rise?

Do you happen to remember the brand of brick you found at Central Market?
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Offline timell

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2012, 08:58:13 PM »
Tim, I think they look pretty darn good. How long did you let the dough rise?

Do you happen to remember the brand of brick you found at Central Market?

Craig,
I mixed the dough on Thurs. morning.  12hrs bulk and then 24 hours pan for the first bake (Fri. Bake) and then another 24 hours pan for the second bake (Sat. Bake).  All at room temp.

The brick cheese didn't have any label on it.  It was just cut and re-packaged at the store.  It was definitely softer to shred than the Wisconsin mild and the NY sharp.  After eating last night's pies I decided that the sharp cheddar was a little too overpowering to the balance.

Tim

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2012, 09:03:45 PM »
Both you guys are killing this Detroit thing. Shut the front door.
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Offline timell

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »
Both you guys are killing this Detroit thing. Shut the front door.

It probably helps that my family has already made three visits to the VIA313 trailer this month for my detailed research.  ;D

Tim

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2012, 10:04:30 PM »
Personally the amount of burn looks spot on on the edges, but if you want more burn, use less Crisco, not more.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Craig's Detroit Pizza
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2012, 01:08:38 PM »
Are the racing stripes VIA313 only, or applicable to this style universally?

John