Another LBE thread - with questions...

[CanadianGeorge]

Hey everyone!  My introductory post from last spring:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18348.msg178032.html#msg178032

Well, I'm just getting back into baking pizza on my LBE.  After several bakes that were inspired by pftaylor's Pizza Raquel thread /recipe I decided to attempt TXCraig1's workflow. (Thank you TXCraig1!)
100% caputo (red bag)
60% hydration
3% salt
1.3% Ischia Culture
24 bulk ferment 65f
24 balled ~285g 65f
1.5 hour up to 74f (room temp)

I have a freezer converted to a fermentation chamber (for brewing beer) that is temperature controlled.  This is perfect for pizza dough as well.  It was hijacked and utilized for milk storage for several months after the girls were born.

It seems like no matter how gentle I am, I often tear the dough when shaping the pie.  Perhaps 1.5 hours isn't long enough to warm up?  I checked the dough temp - it was at room temp.  I'm guessing that there is some basic element that I'm missing?  Using a Kitchen Aid mixer, following the directions....  Admittedly, with each pizza, I get a little better (or maybe the dough warms a little more).  The first one, is usually a write off.  I also find the transfer from the table/counter to the peel difficult.

Here are a couple of pics of the 3rd pie - white mushroom, very tasty!
http://min.us/lkUVQdvw2VI7s
http://min.us/l20XA823u5Uzq

Here's an older picture of my LBE - custom cut 1" kiln shelf deck.  The pie was a rye / KABF mix that wasn't really a hit.
http://min.us/l0U4pEvJu20BE

Thanks

G

[dellavecchia]

You are getting some nice coloration and leoparding, but the pies are misshapen. And you mention tearing during shaping. When you say you use a KA and "the directions", do you mean Craig's directions? How long are you mixing? Are the dough balls nice and smooth when they are formed after bulk, or do they get tears on the skin?

John

[CanadianGeorge]

You are getting some nice coloration and leoparding, but the pies are misshapen. And you mention tearing during shaping. When you say you use a KA and "the directions", do you mean Craig's directions? How long are you mixing? Are the dough balls nice and smooth when they are formed after bulk, or do they get tears on the skin?

John

The mention of KA was only to illustrate the LBE.

Yes, Craig's directions.  A total of 5 minutes while adding flour and an additional 5 after that.

The dough balls are smooth - I'm not though!

[dellavecchia]

The mention of KA was only to illustrate the LBE.

Yes, Craig's directions.  A total of 5 minutes while adding flour and an additional 5 after that.

The dough balls are smooth - I'm not though!

Craig can probably answer with better help, but 10 minutes mix time may be way too much for a 48+ fermentation. Is the 1.3% Ischia of flour or water? You dough may be over fermenting, which would cause tearing during shaping, but we would need to see the dough balls right when ready for use. But it could be other factors that Craig can comment on.

John

[CanadianGeorge]

Craig can probably answer with better help, but 10 minutes mix time may be way too much for a 48+ fermentation. Is the 1.3% Ischia of flour or water? You dough may be over fermenting, which would cause tearing during shaping, but we would need to see the dough balls right when ready for use. But it could be other factors that Craig can comment on.

John

The 1.3% is of the flour.  I didn't photograph the dough balls, but was surprised by the level of fermentation, it seemed a little high but not enough to make me think that it would be a problem.  I was so concerned with not tearing the dough that the shapes were all over the place.

Apologies for such basic questions.  I appreciate your help!

[mkevenson]

CanadianGeorge, Nice stone! I have the same. I am no expert, but was having the same trouble with dough tearing every time I opened the dough. As I was looking at the bottom of your cooked pizza in Pic #2, it appears that the dough is like a patchwork quilt. It is all together now that it is cooked but I am wondering if it is one homogeneous piece of dough when you are stretching it. If it is not then perhaps you are pulling the section apart and the holes are the result. I hand mix, so I have no suggestion of your timing of the mixer, what did help me however was a longer more aggressive knead.  Since I have timed my hand kneading to 7 min, I have yet to develop the holes with that process. Perhaps your dough, as currently processed, has a similar characteristic as mine did.
I am sure more experienced pizza makers will give a better answer.
Good Luck!

Mark

[CanadianGeorge]

CanadianGeorge, Nice stone! I have the same. I am no expert, but was having the same trouble with dough tearing every time I opened the dough. As I was looking at the bottom of your cooked pizza in Pic #2, it appears that the dough is like a patchwork quilt. It is all together now that it is cooked but I am wondering if it is one homogeneous piece of dough when you are stretching it. If it is not then perhaps you are pulling the section apart and the holes are the result. I hand mix, so I have no suggestion of your timing of the mixer, what did help me however was a longer more aggressive knead.  Since I have timed my hand kneading to 7 min, I have yet to develop the holes with that process. Perhaps your dough, as currently processed, has a similar characteristic as mine did.
I am sure more experienced pizza makers will give a better answer.
Good Luck!

Mark

Thanks!  I love the LBE setup, the LBE seems to be the easy part.  The patchwork looking bottom is caused when attempting to transfer the dough from the bench to the peel.  I'll try reducing the mix time down to 5 minutes from 10, drop the starter down slightly (to 1% from 1.3%) and keep a closer watch on the fermentation.  See what happens...

[CanadianGeorge]

I have determined by 'Forest Gumping' my way through this process that the flour appears to have been the issue.  My flour/dough was very similar to what is described in the thread below.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12368.0.html

I noticed that the bags of Caputo (I ordered a bunch from Amazon and been using it since June) expired the end of November and my dough had been getting worse with every bake.  So... I picked up a bag of KABF and once again followed TXCraig's workflow including the 5min max mixing time and two sets of stretch / folds - with the only unplanned difference being ~30hours vs 48hours including a 4 hour room temp wakeup d/t the decreased total fermentation time.  Despite being a little under fermented (expected) the dough was a night and day improvement.  Soft, extendable, strong and easy to work with.

Here are a couple of photos...  I still have a long way to go, but at least the tearing dough issue seems to be resolved.  Luckily I only have 4 unused bags of Caputo.

http://min.us/l8vrGGUHGNf5W
http://min.us/lbupP5SEfGbU17
http://min.us/lSlCFuaRBM7qa

[Jet_deck]

Were they the small red bags, like 2.2kg or the big red bag?

[CanadianGeorge]

Were they the small red bags, like 2.2kg or the big red bag?

Small red bags.

[Jet_deck]

Do you have any idea what temps your getting in the LBE?  The KABF is a good choice for your temperature range, if I had to guess.

[CanadianGeorge]

Do you have any idea what temps your getting in the LBE?  The KABF is a good choice for your temperature range, if I had to guess.

For the KABF I start with a deck temp of 700f and turn the burner to full power - by the end of the bake the deck temp reaches 850-900.  Bake times are around 1:45ish.  For Caputo I used the same method but would start off at 750f.  Any higher start temp and the bottom of the pizza cooks faster than the top.  I think I will stick with KABF for a while...  Long term goal is a WFO, but for now I'm having fun with the LBE.

[CanadianGeorge]

Things went a little better this week outside of the headache on Saturday morning...

100% KABF
60% hydration
3% salt
1% Ischia Culture
24hr bulk ferment 65f
8hr balled 65f
8hr balled 58f (a little too much action, so I dropped the temp)
1.5 hour up to 74f (room temp)

Pics:
1: headache ingredients, excluding late night rum
2: marg
3: marg upskirt
4: marg crumb

[CanadianGeorge]

5: fontina & chive
6: fontina & chive crumb
7: brussel upskirt
8: brussel crumb

[Boatman2]

Great looking pies!! what was time and temp?

[CanadianGeorge]

Great looking pies!! what was time and temp?

Thanks!  1:40-1:50 with a starting deck temp of 675f, burner turned up all the way immediately after launching.

[Chicago Bob]

Nice work CG...very nice indeed. 
I can clearly see what the problem was though....next time jus stick to the rum only. 

[CanadianGeorge]

Nice work CG...very nice indeed. 
I can clearly see what the problem was though....next time jus stick to the rum only. 

Thanks! I can only take credit for the headache - this wonderful forum, specifically TXCraig1 & VillaRoma are responsible for everything else!

Yes, I know better.  My wife and I shared a nice bottle of wine on an empty stomach while preparing to bake the pizza.  That kicked things off...  Zaya Rum finished it! 

[pizzaneer]

Kudos to you and your wife for working together to make something beautiful!  A couple that shares interests like this is destined for a long, happy life.

[CanadianGeorge]

A few from last weekend...  Same dough recipe and schedule as before - only the fermentation was cut a little short.

The dough was a little under fermented but turned out okay - we were hungry and decided to bake at lunch.  Originally planned for evening.

Attempted a scallop pie - it was fantastic!  Made up a garlic alfredo white cream sauce, jumbo sea scallops (quartered or less), bacon and black pepper.  Two minute bake time, scallops ended up at medium rare.

Second picture is of a margarita.

Having fun with this!