Author Topic: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO  (Read 6440 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« on: November 20, 2012, 03:07:02 AM »
Hi Guys

I have just completed building my WFO (Pictures to follow soon) and will be firing up this weekend - this will be my first attempt to bake Pizza's in there ever!!!.

I would like to start of this thread by making my first Neo style Pizza and by not having any such preference or the taste of real Neo Pizza to compare against (Mine will probably be the first Neo Pizza I will be tasting) I decided to look at the most popular posts on this forum to gain a benchmark i can work towards.

I've been looking at PFTaylor's Raquel (The thread that inspired me to build my own WFO) but the one post in that thread that really caught my attention is by Widespreadpizza http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg64105.html#msg64105 - yummmmmy that Pizza looks good, the cheese spread across it with the charred rim - i could gobble that myself.

Never the less, i'd like to duplicate Raquel and Widespreadpizza's attempt for my first firing. From what I have read, PFTaylor use's a starter but for now i think that would just complicate my first few attempts so until I get a handle on the WFO, I would like to stick with IDY.

Pete-ezza i need your assistance to scale down the Raquel recipe to a 10" size pizza using IDY and 2 day cold fermentation in my fridge.

I look forwards to hearing from you'll
Thanks
Regards
PM
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 05:05:08 AM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 09:10:54 AM »
PM,

Welcome back. I have often wondered what you were up to after you left the forum.

Are you still in South Africa?

Ever since Pete Taylor left the forum to start his pizzeria, I have not had occasion to spend much time on the Raquel thread. My recollection is that there were several dough formulations that Pete used over the course of his experimentation. Also, he was using flours that you are unlikely to have in South Africa. Can you tell me which of Pete's Raquel dough formulations you would like to modify and scale down to the 10" size, and also what type of flour you plan to use and its protein content?

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 10:00:34 AM »
Hi Pete

Thanks for the Warm Welcome  :D
I'm still in Good Old South Africa trying to make some tasty pizza  ;D

I've looked through PFTaylor's thread and the post below is the latest formula he released.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg59360.html#msg59360
On the other hand, it's not a must that i have to use PFTaylor's recipe - I'm just looking for a starting point to work my way from there so any good Neo Style Pizza would do (And i know this phrase of "good pizza" is purely a matter of opinion but i trust your judgment, you've always helped me make only the best pizza).

I will be using Cake Wheat Flour that has protein of 11.8 grams per 100 grams.

Thanks
Regards
PM
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 11:25:48 AM »
PM,

Is there any particular number of dough balls that you would like to make? I ask this question because the amount of yeast (IDY) for a single dough ball will be so small that it will be hard to measure out using standard measuring spoons, and too light in weight to weigh on most digital scales. You would need a special digital scale for that purpose. However, by making several dough balls, the amount of IDY for the larger batch will be easier to measure out using standard measuring spoons. You might also want to have several dough balls to play around with. If you have a number of dough balls that you would like to make, please give me that number.

The protein content of your flour seems to suggest that it is like our all-purpose flour in the U.S. On that basis, I would use a hydration of 60%, which is the rated absorption value of a typical all-purpose flour in the U.S. If we are wrong on this, the hydration can be adjusted for future efforts should you succeed with the proposed dough formulation.

To give you an idea of what I am considering for your purposes, it is an all-IDY version that Pete Taylor proposed but scaling the dough formulation down to 10". I tried out the formulation at Reply 212 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg23092.html#msg23092. I used 2% salt but in the final version of his Raquel dough formulation--the one you cited--Pete increased the amount of salt to 2.73%. Please let me know if you have a preference.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 04:38:35 PM »
Hi Pete

I was planning on just making 2 for now but if more makes the recipe easier then i don't mind doing 4 or 5 - it's an opportunity for me to experiment at the same time.

I read your post in the Raquel thread you provided and that Pizza looks lovely. You mention the dough was more extensible and difficult to handle compared to when using preferment. Would changing the salt content to 2.7 make the dough any much more difficult to handle? I guess I'll start off with 2.7 and lets see where it leads to from there.

I'll also be able to give you a accurate opinion of the dough as i plan not to top all 5 of the doughs so would just have 1 or 2 plain.

Thanks
Regards
PM
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 06:19:11 PM »
PM,

Take your pick:

Raquel IDY-Only Dough Formulation for Two Dough Balls
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.23%):
Salt (2.7%):
Total (162.93%):
Single Ball:
213.61 g  |  7.53 oz | 0.47 lbs
128.17 g  |  4.52 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.49 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
5.77 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
348.04 g | 12.28 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.078155
174.02 g | 6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs
Note: Dough is for two 10" pizzas; 0.16 teaspoon = approx. 1/6 teaspoon; scale dough balls to about 6 ounces (actual value = 6.05 ounces); nominal thickness factor = 0.077; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Raquel IDY-Only Dough Formulation for Four Dough Balls
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.23%):
Salt (2.7%):
Total (162.93%):
Single Ball:
427.23 g  |  15.07 oz | 0.94 lbs
256.34 g  |  9.04 oz | 0.57 lbs
0.98 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
11.54 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
696.08 g | 24.55 oz | 1.53 lbs | TF = 0.078155
174.02 g | 6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs
Note: Dough is for four 10" pizzas; scale dough balls to about 6 ounces; nominal thickness factor= 0.077; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Raquel IDY-Only Dough Formulation for Five Dough Balls
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.23%):
Salt (2.7%):
Total (162.93%):
Single Ball:
534.03 g  |  18.84 oz | 1.18 lbs
320.42 g  |  11.3 oz | 0.71 lbs
1.23 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
14.42 g | 0.51 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.58 tsp | 0.86 tbsp
870.1 g | 30.69 oz | 1.92 lbs | TF = 0.078155
174.02 g | 6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs
Note: Dough is for five 10" pizzas; scale dough balls to about 6 ounces; nominal thickness factor= 0.077; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

All of the above dough formulations were prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. Even though it is quite hot where you are in South Africa (in the 80s during the day), I believe that the 0.23% IDY should work for a two-day cold ferment application. Also, the increased amount of salt should strengthen the gluten matrix and slow down the fermentation a bit so that you shouldn't experience an overly extensible dough. You will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for dough losses during preparation of the dough. In all cases, you should scale the final dough batches to dough balls with a weight of about 6 ounces (technically, 6.05 ounces).

Good luck with your new oven and the pizzas you make with it. If the dough matches your oven better than it did my standard electric home oven, you should be in good shape.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 04:30:56 AM »
Hi Pete

Thanks a million for the recipe. As always, everything is right to the "T".

Can i ask you run me through the method? From the Raquel thread, this is what I have found.

1 - Dissolve salt in water. Dissolve starter in brine. Add one half of flour (I'm assuming here I would need to substitute IDY for the starter)
2 - Turn kneader on continuously during the double stage kneading process
3 - 1st Stage Knead: Slowly sprinkle remaining flour for 10 minutes incorporating wet & dry ingredients completely (With the small batch of dough i am making do i still follow the 10 minutes guideline)
4 - 2nd Stage Knead: 15 minutes to build gluten structure (Am i understanding this correctly, after the 10 minutes on the previous step, i should run the kneader for a seperate round of 15 minutes so in total i would have kneaded for 25 minutes between step 3 & 4)
5 - Turn kneader off, cover bowl. Give Raquel a 15 minute beauty rest
6 - Turn kneader on for one full revolution.  Dough texture should appear finished (By one full revolution, how long could i translate this into minutes)
7 - Remove dough from bowl. Punch & fold on bench until very springy. Shape into bulk ball & place in covered bowl to begin double stage rise process
8 - 1st Stage Rise: 15 hours at 66F (My fridge will probably be at below 40F so i guess i would leave the bulk dough ball in there until about 3 or 4 hours before use)
9 - Divide & shape into balls & cover (Just curious to know how to go about dividing the balls - It'll have to be on estimation and discretion to get the required ball weight)
10 - 2nd Stage Rise: 3 hours at 66F ( I don't know if i would be able to maintain this temperature considering the heat and humidity in SA so would it be fine for me to just divide the dough balls 3 to 4 hours before i need to use them and then leave at room temp?)

I know that PFTaylor has perfected this method and he'd probably ban me from using Raquel  :P but without temperature controlled environment and all the fancy tools he had, i may have to improvise the method a little to suite the tools i have.

Feel free to recommend any further changes.

Thanks
Regards
PM

Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 10:02:33 AM »
PM,

I would not suggest that you use the mixing and kneading regimen that you set forth. The one I used for the pizza referenced earlier is the one described in Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg11359.html#msg11359. Reply 24 sets forth a dough formulation that Pete Taylor recommended for both a preferment version and an all-IDY version. In your case, since you will be using only IDY, I would skip the steps that apply to the preferment. Also, since you will be using what appears to be an all-purpose flour instead of a high-gluten flour, I don't think you will need to knead the dough as long as Pete Taylor did. The total knead time in your case will depend on the amount of dough you will be making and whether you will be kneading the dough by hand or by the use of a machine. Whichever method you use, you only want to knead the dough until it comes together smoothly. The dough doesn't have to be kneaded to full gluten development or pass the windowpane test. In fact, you want it to be slightly underkneaded. From that point forward, you want biochemical gluten development to do the bulk of the heavy lifting as far as fermentation is concerned.

BTW, you don't have to use shower caps to cover your storage containers. You can use normal lids, bags or whatever other storage containers you normally use.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2012, 05:37:29 AM »
Hi Pete

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. The instructions on that link look fairly simple and i don't anticipate any problems (Touch Wood). I was about to complicate matters little further when you commented about PFT using High Gluten flour in the link you provided and was contemplating using VWG to up the protein content on my current flour however I thought otherwise and decided to start simple and improve from there similar to how I did in previous experiments.

Just 2 questions I have regarding the stretching steps.
1) PFT Says to place dough in flour bowl - I'm guessing whatever flour catches onto the dough when doing this step is fine, Do i have to be cautious about getting too much flour onto the ball?

2) The stretching steps is quite summarized but i remember seeing some photo's and videos of this but for the life of me cant find them - any suggestions where i could look that comes closest to PFT's method?

Thanks
Regards
PM
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 09:33:00 AM »
Just 2 questions I have regarding the stretching steps.
1) PFT Says to place dough in flour bowl - I'm guessing whatever flour catches onto the dough when doing this step is fine, Do i have to be cautious about getting too much flour onto the ball?

2) The stretching steps is quite summarized but i remember seeing some photo's and videos of this but for the life of me cant find them - any suggestions where i could look that comes closest to PFT's method?

PM,

You're in luck.

I, too, remembered that Pete Taylor showed how to form and shape the dough balls into skins (I think they may call them bases or shells in South Africa). I tried several  searches but couldn't find the right search terms to locate the post in the Raquel thread where Pete talked about the dough shaping method he used. So I started on page 1 of the Raquel thread and scanned the pages until I found the right post. The post is at Reply 485 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg54995.html#msg54995. That post includes two links to YouTube videos showing what you are looking for.

Peter


Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 03:20:28 PM »
Hi Pete

Thanks a million for this - i read through the posts and couldn't find it but as usual you never seize to amaze me  :)
Hope you don't mind me asking you to have a look at my post in the following thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6984.msg224823.html#msg224823 - need some assistance.

Thanks
PM
Regards Mo

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 05:14:54 PM »
Hi Pete

This is a bit of an odd question but i struggle to find quality canned tomatoes - I've tried many brands and that horrible acidic taste is just a put off.

Our local fresh food stores stock "Fresh Tomatoes" They call them Jam Tomatoes here in South Africa and the other day it was advertised as Roma. It's about the size of a small apple. The tomatoe is a little bit watery but much better than the canned ones with no acidic taste. I was wondering how should i go about using these tomatoes to make my sauce - do I simmer it on the stove to burn out some of the water?

Any sauce recipe you can recommend as well to cover the 4 pizza's I'm making?

Thanks
PM
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
PM,

In the U.S. we are blessed with a wide range of choices for commercial tomato products to use to make pizza sauces. They are usually canned but they can be bottled, or even dried for specialty applications. The tomatoes can be domestic (we have some wonderful, naturally sweet fresh-pack tomatoes from California) or they can be imported, such as the popular San Marzano tomatoes from Italy. As a result, there usually isn't a compelling need for our members to use fresh tomatoes to make pizza sauces. However, we do have some members who choose to grow their own tomatoes and to use them to make pizza sauces or to combine with commercial tomato products to make pizza sauces. Growing my own tomatoes has not been a viable option for me where I live in Texas because we have summer months where the temperatures hover around 100 degrees F for days on end. Even the bees and other airborne insects won't come out in that heat to pollinate the tomato flowers. So, I'm afraid that I cannot be of much help to you on how best to make use of fresh tomatoes to make pizza sauces.

My best advice for you is to scan the Pizza Ingredients child board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=44.0 for threads that deal with using fresh tomatoes to make pizza sauces. A few such examples that I found through a quick search of that board are the threads at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12647.msg121813.html#msg121813, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15142.0.html, and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14512.msg144702.html#msg144702. I'm sure that you will find many more such threads and in the process also learn a lot more about making pizza sauces in just about every aspect.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »
Thanks Pete - I'll browse through those posts and see what I can find.

My plans to make the Dough yesterday had derailed a little and I only managed to get down to doing this dough today. I started at around 4PM and here's how I've gone about doing it so far.

I used the Expanded Dough Calc and entered in the info you gave me to get 3 Dough balls of 10" each. Below is the formula

Flour (100%): 320.42 g  |  11.3 oz | 0.71 lbs
Water (60%): 192.25 g  |  6.78 oz | 0.42 lbs
IDY (0.23%): 0.74 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (2.7%): 8.65 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.55 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Total (162.93%):522.06 g | 18.41 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.078155
Single Ball:174.02 g | 6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs
The IDY as I understood the measurements asks for just below 1/4tsp which I easily measured out.

1) I measured out all of the other ingredients by weight except for the IDY.
2) Stirred water and salt in my mixer bowl using a spoon till salt dissolved.
3) Added half flour to the brine mixture and yeast over the flour.
4) Fitted my machine with Dough Hooks and then switched the machine on to the lowest speed for 30 Second. The mixture was like cake batter and I found some unmixed flour caught onto the sides of the bowl so I used a spoon and brought all that flour into the bowl and stirred with the spoon for about 20 second so the flour was properly incorporated.
5) Left eveything for 20 mins autolyse.
6) Added remainder of the flour tablespoon by tablespoon whilst the machine was on minimum speed.
7) Mixer was then switched onto speed 2/7 for another 5 minutes. After this, some dough stuck to the dough hooks. I removed the left over dough on the hooks and found the dough very sticky, kept sticking onto my fingers. I took the dough ball in my hand and kneaded it between my palms for about 30 seconds to a minute then left it back into my mixing ball.
8) 15 minute autolyse.
9) Removed dough from mixing bowl but still found it a slight bit sticky. Hand kneaded again with a slight bit of flower then tried to ball into 3 equal pieces by cutting with a knife but the first ball was too small so I ended up pulling pieces of dough from the larger dough ball to make up the right weight and same with the 2nd dough ball and that's how I ended up with my 3 dough balls.
10) All 3 were left in a tray covered by plastic and put into the fridge.

I will be taking the dough out tomorrow at around 10AM to use by 1 or 2pm. I know with the short fermentation, I'll be sacrificing a little bit of flavour but would I have to anticipate any other issues?

Thanks
Regards
PM
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 02:53:42 PM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 03:57:15 PM »
PM,

I do not see anything out of order. However, it is possible that your flour cannot handle 60% hydration without producing an overly sticky dough ball. If that turns out to be the case, then we can lower the hydration for future doughs should you get good results.

Good luck with your new oven and the Raquel dough.

Peter

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 04:50:56 PM »
Hi Pete

Today was the first time I ever used my WFO to bake pizza and it was a challenging attempt to say the least. The fire just wouldn't light and I struggled for more than 3 hours just to get a good fire going. Once I had the fire ready, I took Raquel out the fridge and left for an hour at room temp. This was approx. 22 hours in the fridge. The dough was nice and soft and the tops were a bit dry.

From there, I dumped the dough ball into flour and then began to stretch it out with my hands. This wasn't too easy as the dough kept springing back and then eventually the centre began to become thin while the edges were thick. I eventually got to 10" by using a rolling pin.
I picked up my skin and put it onto my stainless steel peel which was lightly floured. I topped with sauce (by the way, thanks for giving me some direction with regards to the sauce, I followed one of the posts and my sauce came out very nice, better than any other attempt) and then added cheese. I then shook my peel front and back only to find that the pizza was stuck. Now I started to panic and just couldn't get the pizza to move freely on the peel so I  couldn't  unload it into the oven. Eventually I had to improvise and put my peel with the pizza ontop into the oven hoping the pizza would start a bake and then loosen for me to move it onto the floor.
Eventually it did loosen and I manged to get it onto my oven floor. I baked it till the cheese was nice and melted. I removed it easily and served to my guests who I invited at the last minute.

Honestly I wasn't too impressed with my attempt and can attribute that to many things, one being my inexprience to stretch, bad quality firewood so oven wasn't stoking hot, inexperience with peel. I found my pizza didn't puff up at the edges, the centre which was thinner than the edges was not as tender as I expected it. The taste though was not too bad but a little gummy if that sounds right.

I contemplated long and hard about the way forward and I came to the conclusion that I'm trying to run before I can even crawl. I need to take a step back and find my footing. To start with, until I have gained a little experience, I won't be making pizza for anyone just yet. Secondly, I need to practice my stretching abilities and thirdly I'm going to make just plain pizza with no topping whatsoever, maybe just some butter after its baked - this will give me good feel of how to handle the dough and baking process.

Lastly, I think for now raquel is a little out of my league and needs lots of pampering ... Hehe so I was wondering what recipe do you suggest I work with - maybe Lehmans style?

Thanks
PM
Regards Mo

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 03:43:11 PM »
PM,
I like the way your are thinking here...too much too soon will definitely take away from the fun of enjoying your new WFO.
A Lehman dough would probably be good while you get your oven temps. figured out and the oven itself cures. I also would then try something along the lines of what JConk007 does in his WFO...check out his thread here...I really think he does a superb job(almost makes it look too easy, he is good)  ;)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14533.0.html
Bob
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 09:51:08 PM »
You can't burn the oven too long, so don't be afraid to fire it for 4 or 5 hours or more with crappy wood.  For a dough, start with the emergency doughs and then work your way into the more complicated longer fermented/retarded doughs.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 10:59:38 PM »
Hi Pete

Today was the first time I ever used my WFO to bake pizza and it was a challenging attempt to say the least....

Do you have a way to measure the temp of the floor of the oven?  What was it?
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Offline PizzaManic

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Re: My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2012, 02:59:47 PM »
Hi Guys

Thanks so much for you reponses.

ChicagoBob - thanks for the posts on JConk007. Still running through his thread and will definately get in touch with him - he has indeed done some interesting things and has already answered a lot of my questions just by reading through.

Tscarborough - good idea with the emergency dough but considering my hectic schedule and my plans to do a pizza every second day, I guess atleast a 24 hour cold fermentation would work well. If all goes according to plan, I wish to make a dough on a Monday and stretch/bake on tuesday then wednesday make another dough depending on my previous days results and continue like this until I get a handle on things. I'm also planning to use my home oven for now, its more easy to control the temp. compared to the WFO. I will probably fire up the WFO every weekend and practice my weekly test runs by prepping a propper pizza with toppings.

Jet_desk - unfortunately I don't have a instant read therm preferably IR. That would definately help in deed - right now I have no idea what temps my oven is running at - I wonder if there's any way to check until I find myself a therm.

I found a recipe on the Lehman thread by Pete-ezza whereby Pete used All Purpose flour similar to that which I myself am using. Pete has done a fantastic job on that thread and left no stone unturned when it came to making the lehman dough from hand kneading and bread making machine to more nifty machines like KA.

I just had another look at my flour and like previously mentioned, it's 11.8% however upon closer look it's actually 11.8 grams per 100 grams flour - does that mean the same thing.
I wish to push this flour into the High Gluten Flour Category by using VWG - can I use 11.8% in Novembers Calc.

Looking forward to hearing from you'll.

Thanks
PM
Regards Mo