My Attempt at NEO NY Style in WFO

[JConk007]

Where are you located ? Or did I miss that? Would love to see the oven pictures  and pizza , for better or for worse we all started somewhere! Don't get frustrated read read read ! Some great stuff available on you tube as well as far as stretching...
John

[PizzaManic]

I'm from South Africa.
As for pictures, I was hoping to get some this last run but panic struck when everytjing wasn't going according to plan and when I did get ready to grab a few pics, there wasn't anything to shoot

That why going forward, I'm going to hold off from making pizza for others until I have confidence I can without panic - that way I can grab all the pics I want - something I've always been lacking doing on here.

Chat soon.
Regards
PM

[mkevenson]

Pizza Maniac,

 -" I wonder if there's any way to check until I find myself a therm."

You can use an oven therm, the cheap kind with a dial and lay it flat on the floor so that it is measuring the temp closest to the stone floor. Problem is finding one that goes past 600.
Sorry to be eavesdropping on this thread but it is of interest.

Mark

[Pete-zza]

PM,

I'm beginning to wonder whether it is your flour that is causing some of the problems. By any chance did you re-ball or re-knead or otherwise re-shape the dough balls before trying to open them up to form bases? If so, you should resist doing that since that will only make the gluten matrix overly elastic and spring back when you try to form the bases. Also, if the base you made was sticking to the peel, that suggests the possibility that the hydration was too high. If that is the case, then you might want to drop the hydration down to around 58%. That should improve your ability to form the bases without having them stick to your peel. You will also want to have a light coating of flour on your peel.

As far as increasing the protein content of the flour you are using, yes, you can use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/ to calculate how much vital wheat gluten (VWG) to add to your flour to achieve the desired targeted value of the protein content of your blend. You might shoot for a protein content for the blend of around 13.5%. If you need any help with the tool, let me know but I will need to know the protein content of your particular brand of VWG.

Peter

[PizzaManic]

Hi Pete

I have about 3KG's of flour left so I would start by playing with the hydration a bit and see if it gets better. If not, then i would have to experiment with other flour.
The VWG i have is 75% protein and my flour is 11.8g per 100g. On the package of my flour, it also specifies a single serving of flour = 42g uncooked if that info helps as well.

I found a bread flour that has a protein content of 13.2g per 100g. It's quite close to the 13.5g target I'm trying to achieve by adding VWG. Would it be wise (At a later stage probably) to experiment with bread flour or is this flour not recommended for Lehman's dough?

Thanks
Regards
PM

[Pete-zza]

I found a bread flour that has a protein content of 13.2g per 100g. It's quite close to the 13.5g target I'm trying to achieve by adding VWG. Would it be wise (At a later stage probably) to experiment with bread flour or is this flour not recommended for Lehman's dough?

PM,

The bread flour is a very good choice for the NY style. Many even deem it to be better than a high-gluten flour even though many NYC pizza operators specializing in the NY style use high-gluten flour.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

PM, a couple thoughts on firing your WFO. This should be the simplest part of baking.

First, and by far the most important, your wood must be dry. Wet/green wood is a nightmare to burn. If you can get a big propane torch, it makes things a lot easier. I use this one: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100341111/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=propane+weed+burner&storeId=10051 Perhaps you can find something similar locally. With a torch like this, simply put some split wood (1-2cm in diameter) under your logs (split to 10-15cm or so). I usually put down a row of 4-5 smaller pieces, then another row of 4-5 pieces perpendicular to the first, then a couple of the logs perpendicular to the second row of smaller pieces then on or two more logs perpendicular to the logs below. Leave spaces between everything as you lay it out. Arranging like this allows plenty of air for the burning. The smaller logs is what you light, and they will light the larger logs.

If you can’t find a big propane torch, a smaller one is better than nothing. Matches or small lighters really don’t cut it. You need to be able to maintain a strong flame for a period of time. In this case, add a bunch of tinder and kindling under the stack as described above.

If you are still having trouble, you can light some charcoal as you would for your BBQ, when it is good and hot, put it in your WFO and build a fire like I described above. If your wood is dry, I guarantee that will light it right up.

As far as oven temp, it would be a good idea to get an IR thermometer to help you learn your oven – what floor and wall temp it bakes best at, etc. Once you get used to it, you don’t need it as much. In the interim, the oven will give you a signal as to when it is ready to bake. When you light the fire, the dome will become black – covered in soot from the fire. As the oven heats up, this soot will burn off. Once the dome is completely white and bright (or whatever color material it is made from), it is hot enough to bake. If it has soot, it is not hot enough. Feed the fire as needed to keep it flaming.

I believe you need a rolling flame for baking. Some may disagree with this. When I’m baking, I use smaller logs on the fire (1 at a time) – about 5-7cm in diameter. Kg for Kg, smaller logs burn hotter than large ones.

Good luck. Let me know if I can help with any questions.

Craig

[TXCraig1]

Hi Pete

Today was the first time I ever used my WFO to bake pizza and it was a challenging attempt to say the least. The fire just wouldn't light and I struggled for more than 3 hours just to get a good fire going. Once I had the fire ready, I took Raquel out the fridge and left for an hour at room temp. This was approx. 22 hours in the fridge. The dough was nice and soft and the tops were a bit dry.

From there, I dumped the dough ball into flour and then began to stretch it out with my hands. This wasn't too easy as the dough kept springing back and then eventually the centre began to become thin while the edges were thick. I eventually got to 10" by using a rolling pin.
I picked up my skin and put it onto my stainless steel peel which was lightly floured. I topped with sauce (by the way, thanks for giving me some direction with regards to the sauce, I followed one of the posts and my sauce came out very nice, better than any other attempt) and then added cheese. I then shook my peel front and back only to find that the pizza was stuck. Now I started to panic and just couldn't get the pizza to move freely on the peel so I  couldn't  unload it into the oven. Eventually I had to improvise and put my peel with the pizza ontop into the oven hoping the pizza would start a bake and then loosen for me to move it onto the floor.
Eventually it did loosen and I manged to get it onto my oven floor. I baked it till the cheese was nice and melted. I removed it easily and served to my guests who I invited at the last minute.

Honestly I wasn't too impressed with my attempt and can attribute that to many things, one being my inexprience to stretch, bad quality firewood so oven wasn't stoking hot, inexperience with peel. I found my pizza didn't puff up at the edges, the centre which was thinner than the edges was not as tender as I expected it. The taste though was not too bad but a little gummy if that sounds right.

I contemplated long and hard about the way forward and I came to the conclusion that I'm trying to run before I can even crawl. I need to take a step back and find my footing. To start with, until I have gained a little experience, I won't be making pizza for anyone just yet. Secondly, I need to practice my stretching abilities and thirdly I'm going to make just plain pizza with no topping whatsoever, maybe just some butter after its baked - this will give me good feel of how to handle the dough and baking process.

Lastly, I think for now raquel is a little out of my league and needs lots of pampering ... Hehe so I was wondering what recipe do you suggest I work with - maybe Lehmans style?

Thanks
PM

How much did your dough rise from the time you first balled it to the time you opened it to make pizza?

If your pie gets stuck on the peel again, here are a couple tricks to get it unstuck - 1) lift up the edge and blow under it, but be careful, you can float it right off your peel like a hovercraft, or 2) run a piece of dental floss under it.

I would encourage you to keep using the WFO regularly even if you are also experimenting in your oven. It's all about experience, and you get than by making mistakes as much as doing things right. At a minimum, use sauce when you practice. Bare dough performs very differently than a topped pizza - for one, it will get huge bubbles. It also handles differently on a turning peel (you have a turning peel, right?) Keep with it and you will be baking like a pro in no time. Also, keep in mind that the dough that works best in your oven may not be the same as the dough that works best in your WFO.

CL

[PizzaManic]

Hi

Txcraig1 - thanks for the tips on managing my WFO. I'll be sure to use them - I have to agree about the lighter and matches, it's like trying to light a fire by rubbing 2 sticks together - I'll definitely need to look up a butane lighter.
I would have to also invest in a Therm. I'm basically thumb sucking and guessing whether the temp is right. As for wood, that's my challenge, i can't seem to find a reliable supplier but i have been given some contacts so will be looking them up.

Pete, I'm glad to hear bread flour is recommended. I will first finish the little AP flour i have and then do some experiments with bread flour to see how it goes.
I just made my dough half an hour ago and this time i took things 1 step at a time. Here's how i went about it and I made sure the camera was close to even take photo's of the measured out ingredients and then finally the dough ball.

I used the formula you provided in the following post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669 using AP flour, VWG and Whey except that i had to skip the Whey because i didn't have any on hand and i dropped the Hydration to 58% as a result of my last dough being a little sticky.. Using the Expanded Dough Calculator, i came up with the following numbers for a 10" pizza.

Flour (100%)*: Water (58%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (1%): Total (161%):

147.39 g  |  5.2 oz | 0.32 lbs 85.49 g  |  3.02 oz | 0.19 lbs 0.37 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.12 tsp | 0.04 tbsp 2.58 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp 1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 237.3 g | 8.37 oz | 0.52 lbs | TF = 0.106575

*Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, i used 141.7292 Flour + 5.5971 VWG to up my AP flour of 11.8% to HG Flour of 14.2%


1) I measured out all the ingredients except for my water which was left in the fridge until i needed. I sieved the flour and VWG.
2) Once I was ready to mix everything together, i took the water out the fridge and quickly measured it before placing it in my mixing bowl together with salt and dissolved it.
3) I mixed the VWG and Flour and gradually added it to my mixture whilst on lowest speed using dough hooks. At this point, i found that the dough hooks weren't reaching the very bottom of my mixing bowl so there was a lot of flour still unmixed and I had this very dry dough ball which didn't incorporate all of the flour into itself. Using a tablespoon, i gathered all the loose bits and pieces of dough including quite a lot of unmixed flour and incorporated it with the spoon into the dough ball. I let the dough hooks do it's job again but it just wasn't catching the dough ball and tossing it around as it did with my last raquel attempt. When i grabbed the dough in my hand i realized how dry it was and possibly less hyrdrated even when i tried to hand knead it i had difficulty. I then took the decision to add 2.5tsp water and i now had a moist dough ball which ended up a little too sticky so i took some flour using the tips of my 4 fingers and thumbs and tossed it over the dough ball and hand kneaded it till i found the ball more malleable. At this point i put it back in the machine and switched on my dough hooks with lowest speed - this time the dough hook was able to grab the ball but still not tossing and kneading it around - i found now that the ball was sort of stuck and stretching it apart from 1 part of the bowl to another. I just decided the machine is not going to work as such so i Hand Kneaded it.
4) I added the oil and hand kneaded it into the dough for a short while - eventually the dough was tacky but not sticky.
5) Dough ball was weighed in at 234grams, just 3.3g short of the target weight so in that regard i was fairly happy.
6) I measured the temperature and it was 73F - quite below 80F so i left it out for a short while and then placed it into a oiled tray and oiled the top and sides of the dough ball as well.
7) It was placed at the very back of my fridge taking a total of 20 minutes from the time I added water to my mixing bowl to the time i placed it into the fridge. I will remove and bake it tomorrow evening.

I'll keep you guys posted. Just regarding the hydration, when I attempted the Raquel recipe, i used 60% hydration and the dough ball pulled away neatly from the bowl into 1 neat ball but just by reducing it 2%, it affected it drastically. The Raquel attempt didn't use any VWG though.

Thanks
Regards
PM

[Tscarborough]

Pooh, I light my WFO with one match and walk away.

[TXCraig1]

Pooh, I light my WFO with one match and walk away.

Pooh or Poof?

[Tscarborough]

Kind of a slow crackle, actually.

[Ev]

Sorry to further hijack but I couldn't resist.
 Pooh? I love Pooh!

[Chicago Bob]

Sorry to further hijack but I couldn't resist.
 Pooh? I love Pooh!

Oh no...not him again! 
Sorry, but that bowl of "stuff" he's stirring jus grosses me OUT!! 

[Ev]

What? You don't like cookies?

[PizzaManic]

Hi Guys
I have great news. I am so excited i just couldn't wait to feedback.

My attempt today with the Lehman NY Style Dough was extremely successful in my opinion - okay not extremely as there's a lot more work that needs to be done to perfect it.

1) I started at about 8:15PM and removed the dough from the fridge. I measured the dough temp and it was at 46F so my fridge was keeping it nice and cool.
    In total, the dough was left in the fridge for 21 hrs. At this point, the dough was atleast 1.75 times the original size.
    The oven was switched on to 240C for approx 1.5 hours.

2) Dough was left in it's container, quite heavily oiled (oops that's my fault as you can see in the pic) and left at room temp for about for 1.5 hours. After the 1.5    hours elapsed, the dough spread out a little further and was now definitely double its original size.

3) Once i was ready and fired up to start stretching (and not forgetting nervous that this is going to be another mess-up), i removed the dough ball from it's container (Temp at this point was 66.9f) and found that it was quite firm, not saggy or sloppy, slightly sticky but i guess that's because of the fermentation and i dunked it into my flour.I then sprinkled quite a lot of flour on my tabletop and let the dough rest on it whilst i sprinkled flour over the top of the dough and the sides.

4) I then started to stretch by first using my palm and tips of my fingers to flatten the center and then work my way outwards. I then started using the palms of both my hands to stretch the dough by moving my hands away from each other in opposite directions whilst turning in a clock wise direction alternately flipping the dough over and doing the same on the other side. Now, i should note that the dough was extremely extensible. I never quite understood what Pete-ezza always meant when he described dough as extensible, i knew the meaning of the term but not in actual context but now i fully understand. This dough was just not springing back, it would just stretch outwards and stay there. I was really enjoying my self at this point, being the first time i actually could stretch the dough without screwing it up. I then flipped the dough onto my knuckles and let gravity take over but then i had to be very careful, it was just stretching away from me and i could have probably stretched this dough into a 20" cracker style pizza but i then focused again at the task on hand so i had to contain my self and get the dough back onto my tabletop, check the size which was 10" and flour my peel before tossing the dough onto it. The dough was moving very freely on the peel with no chance of it sticking but then i went to grab my camera again and when i got back found the dough a teeny weeny bit stuck but with a little jolting of my peel back and forth, it loosened again.

5) My oven by now was well upto temp and the stone (left at the last rack in my oven) was definitely heated to optimum temp. Jolting my pizza on the peel back to front whilst walking towards the oven is what i was doing to avoid any sticking and when i got to the oven, i quickly opened it and slid the pizza off the peel onto the stone without any trouble.

6) The timer was set to 8 minutes but i kept my oven light on and monitored the baking throughout. At about 3 minutes, bubbles already started to appear at the top of the base which i was ecstatic about - that just didn't happen with my WFO attempt on Raquel. I opened and the pizza was loose from the stone and  the underneath was still white so left it for another 2 minutes.

7) Checked at 5 minutes and found some browning at the bottom and the top so i knew it was close to completion. Left it for another minute before removing it and then I cut a slice.


Now, you can probably hear it in my voice (I mean fingers ... hehe) that i was very happy with the attempt. I guess what i was happy about is the fact that i could hand stretch the dough from start to finish without any rolling pin. Pete-zza probably will remember previous attempts and disasters - from pizza's ending up like baguettes to pies being tossed all over the floor - i had my good share of fun but this was beyond fun, it was a fulfilling attempt.

I must thank each and every one for the encouragement and great tips - it really helped a lot. Here's a few questions i wish to better this attempt with my next attempt in a few days time hopefully.

a) In terms of dough handling, I think i may have found the break point for my dough. Now by break point, i mean the formula to make my dough overly extensible. I'm sure with Pete-zza's assistance, he'll be able to tell me what to do to to strike the perfect balance between extensibility and spring-back.

b) I cut out a slice of the finished pizza (Hmm not actually pizza, it was just plain dough baked in a oven) and tasted it but this is what i found.
   1) It wasn't tender like how i was expecting it to be. You had to bite into it and then yank it away from your mouth to get a piece off.
   2) You would probably notice the big bubbles i had. It looked really nice but i expected the rim to be more puffy with small bubbles in all the puffiness of the dough rather than having one large big bubble.
   3) The pizza was quite on the stiff chewy side, now i dont quite mind chewy, i know that is what NY Style is all about but this was a different kind of chew. If i were to compare it, on a scale of 1 to 10 - Chewing gum is at 1 on the scale and cardboard is at 10 - my pizza was probably at 8 so almost close to stiff cardboard.
   4) The pizza was not moist, it was more closer to the dry side.
   5) You will notice the one pic below has me showing off the slice i cut - that slice had a big bubble on it so i opened up the bubble to show the inside of the pizza and as can be seen, the inner part of the pizza didnt puff up, it's all quite densed and together.
   6) I refer to the same bubble mentioned in no.5, i bit into the bubble only, meaning i left the bottom section of the pizza slice and the bubble itself was very crispy as you will probably notice it's quite browned as well. Now this crisp wasnt the exact crisp i was looking for, it was more towards the side of hard crisp with a large degree of stiffness whereby you had to pull your hand away from your mouth while biting to get a piece in your mouth whereas i would have preffered a crisp similar to chips found in a bag of potato chips.
   7) Lastly, i found underneath and on top of my pizza, there was quite a lot of loose flour probably the bench flour. I guess i used a little bit extra flour but I think for this attempt i was a bit afraid so i ended up using more than required, with more experience, i'll lessen this.

Other than the 8 points above, i feel i have progressed significantly and with a few more tries I will strike the right balance between everything i'm looking for.

Thanks and i really look forward to hearing from you guys
Regards
PM

[PizzaManic]

More Pictures ...

[Chicago Bob]

PM,
 Congratulations on making a dough you could stretch/work with.  But as TXCraig intructed, without having anything on top of your dough(even just some sauce)that crust is going to act much differently...so it is difficult to address your concerns.
Bob

[PizzaManic]

Hi CB

Oh yes, I remember seeing that by Txcraig and my initial plan of attack was to find the right formula to successfully stretch the skins. Now that i am at a stage where the dough is overly extensible, I'm sure it'll be easier for me work my way and strike the perfect balance between extensibility and elasticity.

On my next attempts, I will definately add some sauce - any tips on what else I can add on top that would simulate a fully topped pizza but keep costs to a minimum since after I scrutinize the results of the attempt, I don't know what to do with the baked skin.

Thanks
PM

[Ev]

Just make a pizza and eat the darn thing!