All tumps bromated flour?

[jsperk]

Hello,

I tried my All Trumps bromated flour and have been using the PJ's clone from Pete-zza's PJ's clone thread. My pizza's really seems to be a lot better and the taste is better than using regular all purpose.

My problem is no matter what I do, same day dough, 2 day cold ferment to 5 days, the dough is really hard to work with and I get small sir bubbles when working with the dough and a paint to get stretched out into shape. Middle ends up real thin no matter what I do.
Any suggestion?

The other strange thing is when I use the All trumps for Detroit style it doesn't seem no different from when I use all purpose but for Ny or American style All Trumps is much better.

Thanks

[communist]

After the cold ferment, do you allow it to warm up for a couple hours?  And how are you kneading the dough ?  I have really cut down on kneading times with All Trumps.  The gluten develops so quick.

[norma427]

jsperk,

I agree with Mark on All Trumps needing a shorter mix time for NY style pizza.  The gluten can become too tight if mixed too long and then that leads to the dough balls being hard to open.  The smaller bubbles in the dough can be a good thing though.  If you still have a problem when mixing your dough less with All Trumps, give you dough a few rests while opening the dough into a skin. Sometimes that can work.

I also have worked with Detroit-style pizzas with Kyrol flour (which is similar to All Trumps) and guess from the higher hydration of those doughs they can be mixed longer.  At least that is my reasoning so far.

Norma

[jsperk]

Thank you both for the replies.

I let the dough rest a couple hours. I use a kitchenaid mixer. I think I usually let it mix with c hook for 5 minutes. Only because the c hook seems like it doesn't work real good. The dough climbs up the hook so to me it really don't seem like a good tool.

I did do a quick pizza after my message. I did a batch in my bread maker and cooked after it was done. The taste and texture was totally different than the other pies, in a bad way. It did spreadout easier but I didn't get the usual oven spring I been getting.

[norma427]

jsperk,

If you are using a Kitchen Aid mixer, you might want to try to mix with the flat beater first until all the ingredients are mixed, then change to the dough hook.  I have been doing that for awhile now and I have liked those results better than when just trying to use the dough hook.  I don’t make big quantities of dough in my Kitchen Aid though.  Usually I will only make one or two dough balls.  I also found that adding the salt to the water first (just mixing the salt into the water with my hand) gives me a better dough.  I normally don’t time my doughs for NY style at home, but watch to see when it at about the cottage stage mixing level, or only mix a little more.  The heavy lifting can be accomplished by the cold fermenting and your dough ball and will look smooth after the cold fermenting.

What hydration are you using with All Trumps for your NY style pizzas?  Can you post the formulation you are using, so maybe other members can also help you?

Norma

[jsperk]

I been working on the Pj's clone mostly.
Here is what I have been using. It has listed bread flour but I use the All Thrumps.
Also I mix the water and yeast first since I have ADY. I think I may go back to the instand rapid rise.

I'm not good at stretching dough out as it is and then when you add in dough that seems to fight with you it gets frustrating.

King Arthur Bread Flour-sifted (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.5%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%):
Sugar (4.2%):
Total (169.4%):
 373.7 g  |  13.18 oz | 0.82 lbs
209.27 g  |  7.38 oz | 0.46 lbs
1.49 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27.28 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.01 tsp | 2 tbsp
15.7 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.94 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
633.06 g | 22.33 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = N/A
 
Note: For a 14" pizza and a nominal thickness factor of 0.142915; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

[norma427]

jsperk,

Thanks for posting the formulation you are using. 

If you are interested, I think this is a good video on how to open pizza dough from Tony Gemignani.  Never mind the rolling part, or the kind of flour he uses to open the dough ball.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

I am not sure when using the Papa John’s clone with the higher oil amount, but maybe you can go a little higher in hydration when using the All Trumps, but really think your mixing might be the problem.  I had played around with the Papa John’s clone awhile ago and really can’t recall what hydration I used.  If you really want to make a NY style pizza I think your TF is too high.

If you want to see what problems I had with dough and when starting to learn to make a pizza, you can look at the first formulation Peter gave me to try at Reply 1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg71965.html#msg71965  You can get a laugh about all what I did wrong in that thread and how long it took me to finally be able to make a decent pizza.  I sure asked a lot of stupid questions at that time and still do ask questions all the time.  I am also still learning what makes doughs tick. 

Keep at learning about dough and making pizzas and you will be where you want to be in no time. 

Norma

[jsperk]

Thanks for the links Norma. I will be making pizza again Friday. With the above recipe I will raise the hydration some and will try a 5 day cold rise in the fridge. Should I adjust anything for a 5 day cold rise?
I was going to mix and knead in my kitchen and then let it sit out a half or so and put into the fridge for 5 days.

Thanks

[norma427]

Thanks for the links Norma. I will be making pizza again Friday. With the above recipe I will raise the hydration some and will try a 5 day cold rise in the fridge. Should I adjust anything for a 5 day cold rise?
I was going to mix and knead in my kitchen and then let it sit out a half or so and put into the fridge for 5 days.

Thanks

jsperk,

I haven’t done many experiments on the Papa John’s thread and really can’t tell you how much IDY to use for a 5 day cold ferment.  You might want to look though the Papa John’s thread and see where Peter posted many times.  I am not sure which was his favorite formulation.  If you look at Peter’s post at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 you can see he only used 0.14% IDY in his formulation for a 5 day cold ferment.  Peter also posted in detail what he did.  You can see in the above link that Peter’s TF was 0.13642.   

Five days is a long while to cold ferment dough and you might have to watch what kind of final dough temperature you have, or you might have to use the poppy seed trick to watch how much you dough ball/or dough ball expand in volume.  If you don’t you might have dough that isn’t usable after 5 days, or dough that might give you problems when opening it.  I really don’t know, but don’t think you need to let the dough sit out at all after it is balled.  Your refrigerator temperature will also affect how your dough will ferment in 5 days.   

Peter also has “short-time” or “emergency” dough for a pizza like Papa John’s on his reverse engineering thread if you are interested or many other formulations.  I am not sure how raising the hydration will affect the Papa John’s dough you are trying to make.  How much did you raise the hydration?

Let us know if you need more help.

Norma