Author Topic: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!  (Read 417 times)

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Offline Donjo911

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My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« on: September 09, 2014, 05:06:36 PM »
I thought it was about time for me to try something different. So, yesterday AM I used PizzaGarage's recipe for the laminated DD using bakers percents.  I made the pie last night, using some of the lessons & coaching herein.  The crust was almost inedible. No doubt something that I did - not the recipe I was following.  It had a 9 hour bench rise in balls @ 72 degrees. Rolled out just prior to making. Baked @ 445* on a preheated pizza stone (and a sheet of parchment on top as I thought the spring form might leak.)

I ordered the American Metalcraft hard anodized 15" pan for future pies (thanks for that post! ChicagoBob). This was was made in the only thing I have that resembles a DD pan - a 9" hard anodized Spring-form pan. 2.5" deep.

Some questions:
-  Exactly how thick is the dough supposed to be rolled out to? I guessed about 1/4" - that was way too thick.
-  How do you keep the sausage patty - I made an 1/4" thick 8.5" patty - from becoming rubbery?
-  Is the top crust supposed to be held down by the weight of the sauce? Mine inflated from steam and well - you'll see....
-  I baked this for a full hour, checking it at 25 min and then in 10 minute increments thereafter. I expected it to take about 30 minutes but it could have easily taken another 30 and probably not been done even then.

The pie consisted of the bottom pan coated in Crisco butter shortening, dough base, 8 oz provolone, sausage patty, 8 oz, mozzarella, basil puree, some onions, pepperoni, top layer of dough, tomato sauce   parm. (then more tomato sauce @ 30 minutes to try to keep the top from further inflation)

IT was my first time out for DD, so I did not expect it to be great. However, I've made far better Detroit and Sicilian pizza's first time out. This was kind of a disaster.  Wife and I only ate the insides out of once piece each and threw the rest away  :'(   Here's what the disaster looked like:
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 05:47:52 PM by Donjo911 »
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Online woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2014, 05:20:58 PM »
Donjo, the outer crust looks pretty good, you probably just need a minor adjustment.

For me, laminated would add an extra degree of difficulty for a first time DD.
Maybe your rolling action squeezed some gas out of the dough...
Also, what kind of flour/any semolina ?

The Malnatis recipe by pythonic has been a pleasure to learn on for a noob.
No rolling required, just push it out in the pan. Its a very buttery and oily dough.

Offline Donjo911

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 05:42:54 PM »
Thanks WMIG,  I spent the better part of the last couple days reading the Chicago DD threads. I just picked PG's because the recipe had bakers %s and pictures of the process. I suppose I'm going to make DD occasionally as I really like the style which means I'll be trying a many recipe variations until I get one I love. However, Pythonic's DD's are very good looking.

I used Canadian Gem AP Bakers Flour bleached, enriched, with 11.5% protein. I use it for NY pizza's cut about 50/50 with PFM Power Flour - but seemed to believe that I did not want a HG flour for Chicago DD.  I did not use any Semolina flour. While I have some on hand - the comments about "real" DD parlors not using it made me think that for my first time out I should stick with the recipe which called only for AP.  I know that I like semolina in pizza crust. I may try that as I move forward. 

As for rolling it out... I'm sure I did push out gasses. I rolled it with a French pin and used long chop sticks as guides on each side. I wanted the same thickness on the edges and it to be a bit thinner in the center by just a tiny amount.  I don't understand how one can roll out dough without pushing out much of the gas from the dough.  I thought about buying a docker before my next time trying DD but I am not sure exactly what the docker does (other than the obvious). What I mean is, what is the benefit to the dough? Seems like using a docker after rolling out a disc would just pop/release more of the gasses?  My NY pies have a thickness factor of .07 to .09 for a 18" pie.  So using a dough this thick the bottom layer was 18 oz and the top was 13 oz. (For reference my 18" dough balls are regularly only 15 - 16 oz.   I thought this thick may be way off base, but figured I'd try it to get a reference point in my head.  If you can approximate your TF - that would be helpful. Please let me know if it's different for the bottom crust than the top layer or the same.  My guess is that I should half the size of the dough balls. Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Don
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 05:45:20 PM by Donjo911 »
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
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Online woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 06:20:05 PM »
Hey Don,
I'll answer what I can, knowing the experts may provide some differing and improved advice.

Your TF for the bottom comes out to 0.28, and the bottom is 0.20, so that might be too much dough on both ends.
That would account for the long bake time too.

The TF I calculate from pythonic's recipe is 0.16 (12.5 oz into a 10" pan) which is quite a bit thicker than I'm used to (mostly NY style).
I will say that the bottom of the crust after pushing out in the pan is probably thinner than that, with a bit more thickness near the edge and up the sides. No roller used with this recipe.

For the stuffed crust style, the top and bottom doughs should be the same thickness based on what other folks have seen in Chicago DD pizzerias. I don't think that's set in stone though, I would probably use less dough for the top and enjoy it slightly thinner than the bottom.

The flour I use and like for DD style so far is PFM Mondako which isn't as strong as Power.
And there's about 4% semolina used in pythonic's recipe.

The yeast amount is worth checking too.
The Malnatis recipe was a very active 4 hour rise that had to be punched down.

I've never used a docker, but I think that would be more for a cracker or thin crust pizza where you don't want bubbles or unevenness. I don't get any unwanted bubbles on the bottom (probably not possible with all the weight on it), but the top dough might need to be docked....that's where I'm out of my element.


« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 06:22:34 PM by woodmakesitgood »

Offline Donjo911

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 06:33:13 PM »
Thanks again WMIG.   The numbers you provided on the TF are very helpful. I'll use that as a reference next time out on DD. Also, I did not consider hand pressing the dough into the spring-form pan - that makes total sense. The docking as you explained makes sense too. I can see why/how it's used for Chicago thin and American pizza, etc. It looks like the Mondako is @ 11.9% so it seems like its similar at least in that regard.  I've been reading Garvey's more recent posts this afternoon on this board.  Just like my NY learning - I'm reading today what I did wrong yesterday! :-D   As for yeast, I have IDY and ADY but in this case, I used a very active culture. Since I was going to make a same day room temp counter dough - that made sense to me.  Next time out I will use ADY or IDY and I am still undetermined whether I'll use a controlled temp ferment or refrigerator cold rise - the later I've tried to stay away from.

I feel like I've been robbed of my pizza this week - Since I don't want to throw away another pound of cheese and meat this week, I'm going to make a NY tomorrow night to make up for it.
Thanks for all your help/advice,
Cheers,
Don

Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Online woodmakesitgood

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 06:53:06 PM »
No problem Don.  ;D
Good luck with your DD efforts.

The yeast amount is a bit foggy to me still.
The recipe I used says to use 1.4 g ADY and this is listed as 0.7%.

But when I check the percentages, I get 0.4% ADY, so I'm not sure what is off.
Either way, that seems like a fair amount of yeast, should provide a lot of action.


Offline Garvey

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 07:45:01 PM »
That appears to be a stuffed pizza, not a deep dish (i.e., has a top crust)?  Totally different animal.

If you want deep dish, fully explained, step-by-step, then go with Ed's (VCB's) recipe.  It is without peer.  Nothing is more comprehensive and foolproof.

http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail2012.pdf

(In case he chimes in, lemme say that this version was my favorite of his, where his more recent formulations call for tons more crust, which isn't my thing.  YMMV.)

Cheers,
Garvey

Offline Donjo911

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 08:05:55 PM »
That appears to be a stuffed pizza, not a deep dish (i.e., has a top crust)?  Totally different animal.
Garvey,
I feel quite stupid. I wanted to make DD not Stuffed. I just thought they were different species of the same genus. Thanks for clearing that up.  I will try it with the recipes you provided as those quantities for toppings are more in line with what I had hoped for.  FWIW - what is the purpose of the top layer of dough? Did that originate somewhere or is it used to utilize it as a way to better/differently cook the internal ingredients?  I could not find a clear answer so that is why I assumed they were closely related. Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline vcb

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 08:21:21 PM »
That appears to be a stuffed pizza, not a deep dish (i.e., has a top crust)?  Totally different animal.

If you want deep dish, fully explained, step-by-step, then go with Ed's (VCB's) recipe.  It is without peer.  Nothing is more comprehensive and foolproof.

http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail2012.pdf

(In case he chimes in, lemme say that this version was my favorite of his, where his more recent formulations call for tons more crust, which isn't my thing.  YMMV.)

Cheers,
Garvey


Thanks for the kind words, Garvey.  :chef:
After a quick look, I'm noticing that the main difference between my 2012 recipe and the final one on the RealDeepDish.com website is 1/2 cup of flour and 1/4 cup of water.

-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
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Offline moose13

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 09:28:06 PM »
Looks better than my first Deep dish pie.
Mine looked much like yours but even thicker  :o
I also did not have the right pan and went with a spring pan.
One thing i learned and you will too, pretty thin in the corner and up the sides. Because it grows!
Your next one will be good!


Offline Donjo911

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 09:33:45 PM »
Thanks Moose!  it's so funny how every pizza type is a whole new experience!  Thanks for trying to make me feel better! You're a pizza-pal! ;D
Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline moose13

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 09:34:22 PM »
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 09:36:21 PM by moose13 »

Offline Garvey

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2014, 10:15:08 AM »
FWIW - what is the purpose of the top layer of dough? Did that originate somewhere or is it used to utilize it as a way to better/differently cook the internal ingredients?  I could not find a clear answer so that is why I assumed they were closely related.


Don: I honestly don't know.  I am sure there are some pizza historians here who can trace it back to Italy somehow.  Actually, Ed has done that on his webpage.  FWIW, I think it's tricky to do stuffed pizza justice in a home oven.  Even in commercial ovens, that top crust tends to be a layer of undercooked dough, which is really disgusting, IMO.  When I make stuffed pizza, I will not sauce the pizza until late into the cook time, so the top crust has time to set up.  Maybe add the sauce for the last ten minutes.

Thanks for the kind words, Garvey.  :chef:
After a quick look, I'm noticing that the main difference between my 2012 recipe and the final one on the RealDeepDish.com website is 1/2 cup of flour and 1/4 cup of water.


Dude, your recipes rock.  As an instructional designer by trade, it speaks to my heart.  And maybe I mischaracterized when I said your latest recipe is "tons more crust" (lol, sorry,  :D), but it *is* 28% more crust, which is not insignificant, either.

Cheers,
Garvey

Offline pythonic

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 04:33:40 PM »
Looks better than my first Deep dish pie.
Mine looked much like yours but even thicker  :o
I also did not have the right pan and went with a spring pan.
One thing i learned and you will too, pretty thin in the corner and up the sides. Because it grows!
Your next one will be good!

Holy crap.  Looks like a tire.  How much cheese was in that pizza Moose? 

Nate
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline pythonic

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 04:39:01 PM »
Garvey,
I feel quite stupid. I wanted to make DD not Stuffed. I just thought they were different species of the same genus. Thanks for clearing that up.  I will try it with the recipes you provided as those quantities for toppings are more in line with what I had hoped for.  FWIW - what is the purpose of the top layer of dough? Did that originate somewhere or is it used to utilize it as a way to better/differently cook the internal ingredients?  I could not find a clear answer so that is why I assumed they were closely related. Thanks in advance!
Cheers,
Don


Don,

That wasn't that bad of an attempt.  It's hard to make something you've never tasted before.  The recipe you used was for a Giordanos or Edwardos stuffed pizza.  Look them up on google images when you get a chance to take a look at their pies.  I still haven't mastered these either.  A real good oven is key I think.

For a deep dish recipe give VCBs and mine both a try.  They are a little different.  Good luck on your journey and I will be looking in on your progress.

Here is my current go to recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.0

It's a play off the famous BTB thread found here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6480.0


Nate
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 04:41:47 PM by pythonic »
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline moose13

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 07:04:45 PM »
Holy crap.  Looks like a tire.  How much cheese was in that pizza Moose? 

Nate

Haha, i know!
I think the cheese was about right, it was the 3x extra dough that got me :(

Offline Donjo911

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 02:54:31 PM »
This was made mid week using the same dough ball that I froze from the first batch.  A few big differences:
1) the Chicago Metalcraft 18" Anodized DD pan that ChicagoBob recommended was used. This is a great pan!
2) I only made a bottom crust - no top layer as in stuffed.
3) I used dollops of sausage on top of the cheese layer on the bottom instead of a full patty of sausage
4) I also used 2 cans of quartered stewed tomato - I remembered that Pizzeria Uno used them in the 80's and liked that.
5) I added an entire 28 oz can of Cento AP Ground tomato as well.
6) I "kitchen sinked" the cheese. 8 oz of Frigo WMLM, 3 oz. of Smoked BelGoiosso Mozz, 6 oz of Frigo PSLM Mozz.

I left it on the counter to defrost for 9 hours but had to move it to the proofing box to get up to 70*. It was rolled out to about 8 -10 mm thick @ 20-ish inches round and was still a little elastic - just like the unfrozen dough the first time out. Baked for 40 minutes @ 445*   broil for 3 minutes to blast the pepperoni.    It was far better than the first time out - though I seriously doubt that I would be considered anything but a distant relative to a real Chi DD.  It was however, very tasty.  I may have overdone it ordering the 18" pan - I may order another 12" for the future - so I don't have to buy bigger waistline pants and go long on my cheese stocks!  :-D  Next time out - I'll use the recipe Garvey recommended. However, the next three nights are NY style. ;)
Cheers,
Don
Few great accomplishments are achieved single-handedly, Most have their Norgays.
How do you spot a Norgay?
You start with the people with the funny names.

Offline moose13

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Re: My first Chicago DD attempt - Arrrrgh!
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2014, 11:38:54 AM »
Atta boy!
Looks much better.
Nice work!