Author Topic: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype  (Read 6976 times)

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Offline 2stone

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2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« on: November 26, 2012, 08:58:16 PM »
Here is a short video of a wood fired prototype I've been working on:
It uses the 16" pizza grill, 42 fire bricks, 4 cement blocks and a trim & base kit.
It requires no tools and can be built in less than an hr. It works well with coal and wood, and is real efficient.

The dough I'm using is way past it's prime.....sorry. The sauce is based on a 6 in 1 blend, the cheese is 3% whole milk mozzarella and the basil was infused with Amish roll butter.

Just a few more tweaks......

Willard

« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 09:52:02 AM by 2stone »


Offline Jet_deck

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2012, 09:02:18 PM »
Looks very interesting.  The pizza looks good, too.  Will it have an electric rotating deck option?  Thanks for sharing.
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Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2012, 09:22:23 PM »
Thanks, my goal on this project has been to make a wood fired 2stone that delivers on price and performance.
Once the brick has been heated up it puts out a steady flow of heat that can easily be manipulated using small bits of kindling size wood chunks. I have made a few prototypes that have the electric rotating hearth, but they always came up more expensive to make than I liked. I'm going for a more manual feel where you can really get the wood fired experience. -Willard


Offline jeff v

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2012, 10:20:42 PM »
Looks nice Willard. Is it a self contained unit or does it sit on a grill?

Good luck!
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2012, 10:39:59 PM »
I'm going for a more manual feel where you can really get the wood fired experience. -Willard


I've been getting that 'wood fired experience', and let me say it is not always positive. :-D  I'm just suggesting to maybe offer it as an option at some point.  Building and tending the fire, and assembling the oven may be enough for some.
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Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2012, 11:00:34 PM »
Jeff, I think a 4-1/2X2-1/2X9" fire brick weighs 3 lbs.   7.3 lbs.
The total thermal mass including top and bottom stones in the oven
should be around 150 lb. 325 lbs. It is self contained (no need for a grill) and it can be fed just
just like a regular WFO.

Jet Deck, I hear you.  I use gas a lot.....cause it's so easy.
But I've always been a sucker for real wood. Just depends on the mood.
Watching the flames and listening to the crackle of the wood burning......I heat my whole house with
A big soapstone oven in the living room. The ambiance is hard to beat.

The same unit fits on a gas grill....you can just pick it up and move it.

Willard
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:57:46 AM by 2stone »

Offline Polo

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 07:41:07 AM »
Jeff, I think a 4-1/2X2-1/2X9" fire brick weighs 3 lbs.

I am thinking more like 7 or 8 lbs. In case that weight difference changes your design.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 07:44:18 AM by Polo »

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 08:54:23 AM »
So sorry Polo, you are absolutely right.
It's 7.3 lbs. per brick not 3 lbs. I some how copied that wrong.
The total weight comes out to about 325 lbs. of thermal mass.
That's much better.....Thanks

Willard
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:59:21 AM by 2stone »

Offline WestCountry

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 10:52:58 AM »
Hi Willard,

Thanks for sharing your new idea here, its a pretty neat concept. What is the pre-heat time like to get it up to say 700 degrees, and up to say 900 degrees?

P.S. Still enjoying my 2Stone Inferno.

Thanks
Chris


Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 12:39:13 PM »
Hi Chris,

The burn chamber is pretty small, so around 1/2 hr to 45 min is what I'm shooting for.
I have tweaked three more things since I posted the video so hopefully by my next firing
it will be good to go. Yes it can get as hot as you would like....but oddly enough my go to baking temp is around 600 now!!

glad you are still enjoying the Inferno

regards
Willard

Offline WestCountry

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 01:47:52 PM »
Willard,

Thanks for the update! I'll keep following more on the wood version of that oven. Yeah, I hear you in terms of temperature....I am liking right around 700 for my sweet spot...and might start trying around 650...

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2013, 04:49:42 PM »
The skid of bricks finally thawed out so I could use them.
There was still a little ice on them, so they didn't go togeather real easy.

Everything should be self explanatory...the pictures toward the end show the stone slide. -wg

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2013, 04:51:17 PM »
more

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2013, 04:53:09 PM »
This shows the stone all the way inn and pulled all the way out.

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2013, 12:31:25 PM »
Willard,
 Have you ever considered an Inferno or Pro model with the option of both gas and wood? I just picture this one you show encased in stainless, the ability to wheel around if needed and option of both fuels. Either way, this looks interesting, just concerned about too much bottom heat being that the fire is underneath the stone instead of on the same level as the baking surface. I know with the gas models you have, the ability to move the burner is crucial in the balancing act of the oven and am wondering how you plan on alleviating that possible concern on this model?

Anthony
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Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2013, 02:44:02 PM »
Anthony,

I have a couple of prototypes that do that, and if I do it they will be more money. (so who knows)
The two second to last pictures show a sliding stone which duplicates the effect of the sliding burner.

willard

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2013, 09:44:30 AM »
Too much going on yesterday, let me add some more thoughts, and some philosophy!

I drive a Dodge Ram 2500 Hemi, and my wife drives a Toyota Yaris. Actually.... even though I'm a tall guy, I bought it first to drive back and forth from Buchanan to Chicago (4 hrs. total)  It is like a tin can, and when it blows hard it can be all over the road, but I love it. I got around 40 mpg sometimes and being that it's so small  really isn't lacking any power......well it does vibrate a bit at high speeds!!
Parking is a breeze, and it has its place in our transportation arsenal. I wouldn't be without it or something similar.

The truck on the other-hand is practical, and with 4 wheel drive....and high off the ground can go anywhere. But, it can get as low as 12 mpg. and is not something we choose to joy ride in, and parking can be a bitch. It can tow the biggest Bobcat with no problem and is great for hauling all kinds of stuff. It is also only a 2 seater, where we can fit 5 in the Yaris (in a pinch) Again, I wouldnt be with out it or something similar,

Ovens, are really the same. One size does not fit all. The variables are price, size, performance, etc. etc. There are a number of 2stone owners who use both. It depends on how much time you have, how many pizzas you make, how much fuel you want to use and what type of pie you want. My truck is not going to be replaced by the Yaris, and you won't replace a big expensive WFO with the 2stone. They are different, just as pizzas are different.

There is a big misconception that is being peddled in the pizza world............that Neapolitan pizza sits on top of the mountain peak, and all other pizzas are some type of inferior wannabees if you will. I think there are probably people on this forum making dynamite pizza  in their home ovens. The best pizza I have had was not Neapolitan or wood fired. I talked to a guy yesterday who has a wood fired oven and a 2stone who said some of the best pizza he has had came out of an electric oven. (guess who's it is)

The little WF 2stone kit is simple and relatively inexpensive for what it does. It can make fantastic pizza, and top and bottom heat is adjustable to a degree. It is a fuel miser, a DIY project that can be dressed up a 100 different ways. For those of us who are WF pyromaniacs at times, it is a lot of fun to mess around with. Once the bricks are laid (whether you chose to insulate and dress it up or not) the 2stone can be removed and replaced with a grate and morph in to a wood fired grill with a serious heat sink.

I'm responding to a lot of feedback along with a lot of "out of the box" design. If it has any merit or not, I don't know. I have a Leatherman multi tool, but I don't use it too much, I prefer to use a screwdriver that doesn't have a pair of pliers or a nail file coming out of the back of it! I guess that's kind of my design philosophy. I'm happy with an assortment of tools that all do their job well in there respective fields. Ovens are a baking tool, and all have their respective strengths and weaknesses. -wg



Offline scott r

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2013, 09:59:31 AM »
There is a big misconception that is being peddled in the pizza world............that Neapolitan pizza sits on top of the mountain peak, and all other pizzas are some type of inferior wannabees if you will. I think there are probably people on this forum making dynamite pizza  in their home ovens. The best pizza I have had was not Neapolitan or wood fired. I talked to a guy yesterday who has a wood fired oven and a 2stone who said some of the best pizza he has had came out of an electric oven. (guess who's it is)

So true!   im not sure I agree that neapolitan is inferior to anything, but for sure I have had pizzas that I thought were just as good as the best pizzas I have had in Naples and at high profile US places such as UPN, Keste, Don Antonio, Il Pizzaiolo, and Amano.    Even though I can make a 1.5 minute pizza at home, I tend to mostly make pizzas at 650 because it allows me to use cheese that tastes better to me.   When I can bust out some really fresh buffala, then I love a neapolitan pizza, but for me I have to have that cheese to really compete with my mid temp new haven (ish) style pizzas.   

Also, I remember having a great converstation with Chau once where he commented that when you really nail a crust at 600 degrees it really isnt THAT much different than the crust on a great neapolitan 1 minute bake.    I think I agree with him, and the better I have gotten at making pizza the better my lower temp pies have been getting.    I think a super high heat oven is just a little more forgiving, and that amazing oven spring and texture tends to come a little easier.     


« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 10:15:53 AM by scott r »

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2013, 10:31:44 AM »
Back when we started the 2stone (on this forum) we did a bunch of drawings and gave away some ovens. I had fun and some of you got free pizza grills.

I would like to continue the tradition with a little twist. Instead of having a drawing, draw or sketch a  black and white design of a dressed up "2stone fire brick kit"  It can include a built inn wood box and prep table. Any material you choose....brick, stone etc. etc. Take a picture of it with your phone or whatever (it could be computer generated, or it can be just plain crude!) and post it on this thread. Help me figure out a fair way to judge it, (like nominating some judges from the forum) and the winner will get a free $600+ WF 2stone kit. (US continent and Canada shipping allowance $40.00)  -wg

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2013, 10:41:49 AM »
Scott r,

Quote
Also, I remember having a great conversation with Chau once where he commented that when you really nail a crust at 600 degrees it really isn't THAT much different than the crust on a great neapolitan 1 minute bake.

After baking all over the place (500-1000) my preferred "go to" baking temperature is 600 + - 10

-wg

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 09:54:33 AM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 10:17:29 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline jeff v

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau

I think this post (and maybe the previous couple aswell)has potential to be a great discussin/thread if others are so inclined. Maybe we could break it into a separate topic? I'd like to contribute some based on what I've learned with different flours over the past couple of months.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »
Back when we started the 2stone (on this forum) we did a bunch of drawings and gave away some ovens. I had fun and some of you got free pizza grills.

I would like to continue the tradition with a little twist. Instead of having a drawing, draw or sketch a  black and white design of a dressed up "2stone fire brick kit"  It can include a built inn wood box and prep table. Any material you choose....brick, stone etc. etc. Take a picture of it with your phone or whatever (it could be computer generated, or it can be just plain crude!) and post it on this thread. Help me figure out a fair way to judge it, (like nominating some judges from the forum) and the winner will get a free $600+ WF 2stone kit. (US continent and Canada shipping allowance $40.00)  -wg

Williard, I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for but here is my crude drawing entry.   ;D

Offline scott r

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2013, 09:09:14 PM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau

Ill be the first to really get this thread split, haha

Chau.... Thats one of the best posts ever, you speak the gospel my man and I couldn't agree more with all but one point.   I know we like the exact same pizza.    I was probably one of those people that said that caputo wasnt as good at low temperatures as other flours, and thats because those other flours have malt to aid in the browning.   For me, char or a good propensity to brown provides a flavor thats very important, and if a pie doesnt have enough char flavor I just kind of think its inferior.  Of course you can ammend caputo for home oven bakes (which I do all the time)......but thats another whole can of worms.   

Its also very possible I have spent too much time in new haven :)       

Honestly, though, I trust you so much and I think your a genius so carry on :))       

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2013, 10:10:13 PM »
Not bad there! Better than some of my chicken scratch.....you are following through on the "bare bones" style with the card table and the wagon! If you are the only entry, you may just walk away with an oven!

Agree with you on the balance, balance, balance. To find each balance you have to know what the perimeters are.....which you will only get through "trial and error" slowly you will start to find some consistent markers....or a point of reference.

Maybe the big idea is to recognize and accept that pizza making is fluid "it has been changing, and will continue to change" The idea that there is a pure strain of pizza of some sort at the top is absurd. Each genera
has been built on the shoulders of something else....a precursor, and the precursors most likely found the new and improved version to be just a blasphemous as people do today when you tweak some holy grail they think should be chiseled in stone.

Personally I am inspired by someone who is carving out there own style.......rather than beating their brains out trying to make replicas (not that there is anything wrong with that......it makes good practice!!)

Pizza will change.....it may turn into something you would never dream of, and then become embraced... fought over......and defended, just as the Neapolitan masters rolled over in their graves watching New Yorkers melign their old world masterpieces"


 

pizzapan