Author Topic: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype  (Read 4038 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 09:54:33 AM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 10:17:29 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline jeff v

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau

I think this post (and maybe the previous couple aswell)has potential to be a great discussin/thread if others are so inclined. Maybe we could break it into a separate topic? I'd like to contribute some based on what I've learned with different flours over the past couple of months.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2013, 07:03:34 PM »
Back when we started the 2stone (on this forum) we did a bunch of drawings and gave away some ovens. I had fun and some of you got free pizza grills.

I would like to continue the tradition with a little twist. Instead of having a drawing, draw or sketch a  black and white design of a dressed up "2stone fire brick kit"  It can include a built inn wood box and prep table. Any material you choose....brick, stone etc. etc. Take a picture of it with your phone or whatever (it could be computer generated, or it can be just plain crude!) and post it on this thread. Help me figure out a fair way to judge it, (like nominating some judges from the forum) and the winner will get a free $600+ WF 2stone kit. (US continent and Canada shipping allowance $40.00)  -wg

Williard, I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for but here is my crude drawing entry.   ;D

Offline scott r

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2013, 09:09:14 PM »
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau

Ill be the first to really get this thread split, haha

Chau.... Thats one of the best posts ever, you speak the gospel my man and I couldn't agree more with all but one point.   I know we like the exact same pizza.    I was probably one of those people that said that caputo wasnt as good at low temperatures as other flours, and thats because those other flours have malt to aid in the browning.   For me, char or a good propensity to brown provides a flavor thats very important, and if a pie doesnt have enough char flavor I just kind of think its inferior.  Of course you can ammend caputo for home oven bakes (which I do all the time)......but thats another whole can of worms.   

Its also very possible I have spent too much time in new haven :)       

Honestly, though, I trust you so much and I think your a genius so carry on :))       

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2013, 10:10:13 PM »
Not bad there! Better than some of my chicken scratch.....you are following through on the "bare bones" style with the card table and the wagon! If you are the only entry, you may just walk away with an oven!

Agree with you on the balance, balance, balance. To find each balance you have to know what the perimeters are.....which you will only get through "trial and error" slowly you will start to find some consistent markers....or a point of reference.

Maybe the big idea is to recognize and accept that pizza making is fluid "it has been changing, and will continue to change" The idea that there is a pure strain of pizza of some sort at the top is absurd. Each genera
has been built on the shoulders of something else....a precursor, and the precursors most likely found the new and improved version to be just a blasphemous as people do today when you tweak some holy grail they think should be chiseled in stone.

Personally I am inspired by someone who is carving out there own style.......rather than beating their brains out trying to make replicas (not that there is anything wrong with that......it makes good practice!!)

Pizza will change.....it may turn into something you would never dream of, and then become embraced... fought over......and defended, just as the Neapolitan masters rolled over in their graves watching New Yorkers melign their old world masterpieces"
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Offline scott r

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2013, 10:11:02 PM »
I think chau should get the oven... DONE!   


 >:D

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2013, 10:15:27 PM »
Wow,
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 06:51:21 AM by 2stone »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2013, 05:13:40 PM »
Thanks Scott and I agree with you, some flours are better suited for different purposes.  I wouldn't argue that.  I'm just saying caputo is a versatile flour and can be great at lower temps.   I believe Di Fara uses a 75/25 blend of 00/AT's baked around 7 minutes correct?  Anyways, I'm sure you've seen these before but here are a few examples of 100% caputo at lower temps in my wfo.     

I made a mistake in the video.  This dough was made with a starter and not IDY as I mention in the video.
Scott I think you like your pies darker than that, but there was no browning or toughness here.  Especially in this first video, look closely at the crust and crumb.

Low temp Caputo 00 bake


low temp 00 007


Williard, excellent post.  I could not agree with you more.  Pizza like everything else is fluid.  Even the experts are all interpreting what they think is true pizza.  Not sure that anyone is more correct than the other. 

Chau
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 11:26:44 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott r

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2013, 08:00:04 PM »
chau, I agree with you, that pie looks like it has some char flavor!     I think im starting to see where/why we disagree. You said in the video that the pizza was cooked with a 750 degree floor.   THat means the ambient temp around the pie had to be 850 to to get an even bake.     

I was trying to steer people away from using straight caputo flour in a home oven (that of course maxes out at 550 if they are lucky).  There was a time on this forum before all you young bucks came in here (haha) where it was almost every day that someone read about caputo flour being the "best"... bought a bag, used it in their home oven... and pulled the piiza when it looked done to them (had a little char).   There were a lot of disappointed pizzamaking.com newbies because they had spent so much on this amazing new pizza flour plus shipping that just didnt provide them with a good pizza.   Im sure you would agree that 100% caputo at 550 and an 8-10 minute bake makes a pretty crappy pizzza.  (by that time its totally dried out and dead).    Of course, you could talk them into pulling the pie really early (before it looked done),  and that would make it better, but in general its a tough way to make a good pizza with authentic pizzeria char flavor!

When discussing caputo being ok for lower temp pizza I was thinking 550 and you were thinking 750 (or more depending on how you measure).     

Honestly,   I think about 50% of "neapolitan" pizzerias using caputo flour I have been to with wood burning ovens have been baking 3 minute + pies with a 750 degree floor, so most if not all of these places would consider your pie to be in the neapolitan "speed".   THere are a few places around boston that do this, and I have run into it in los angeles as well.     

I had a feeling there was something weird going on because I honestly tend to agree 100% with what you say on this forum..... im going to crawl away for now and stop causing trouble on the forum :)   


Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2013, 09:24:37 PM »
Nice pies.....I don't know, maybe there is something wrong with me....I have gotten over the whole Caputo thing.
It is ingrained in the Neapolitan mystique....or "00" is. I have been picking up all the cheap flours I can get my hands on,
trying to see what I can do with them! Maybe I'm just in a contest with myself......thinking if I did it all right I can pull a masterpiece off of a bag of
"Aldi's All Purpose".......... probably wishful thinking. I did make some incredible sour dough loaves with some "Harvest Bread Flour" (Con Agra)
after I read Scott123's review praising it to the heavens.....though he is right, if you are looking for real performance, there is nothing quite like bromated....
but that is a tough sell in today's Whole foods environment! For me (at the moment) its about finding the magic formula of bulk rise.....rest and folds......and final shaping.
I also have a dedicated cold fermenting fridge where I'm now at 45F instead of 34F   
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2013, 11:04:59 AM »
Scott, taking temps in a wfo is a bit tricky.  Depending on how close you are to the coals, the temp reading can vary quite a bit.   But these pies were right around the 4min bake realm, which tells me the floor is closer to 700F.  Typically at 750f, I'm getting closer to a 3 min bake time.  I think NY style varies between 4-7/8 minutes right?   But I do see your point.  When I get a bit of time here, I will start experimenting and try to make a decent 100% caputo pie in the home oven closer to 8 minutes.  :angel:

I don't know how great the results will be but I will try.  And yes, I already know that I wouldn't get similar char characteristics but then again, there are a lot of NY style pies made with malted flours with blonde rims so that might be a moot point. 

Williard, there is nothing wrong with you.  I do like to use caputo and think it's a great flour but I do agree with you that it may get a lot more attention than it deserves.  It's talked about so much here, that many new members do get the sense that they need to use it for pizza making or that it is the best flour for pizza regardless of the style or oven, which isn't true at all.   I also agree with you about flour versus technique, but that is another conversation and another thread.

In general, I feel that too much emphasis is placed on using specialty flours and not enough emphasis placed on technique, practice, and experimentation.  I think that if one has a good understanding of making dough and baking, that you could make a decent product with even cheap AP flours.  So no....I don't think it's wishful thinking at all.  You would be surprise at what you can do with AP flour. 

Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2013, 11:20:02 AM »
I know we keep veering off topic here so let me make a suggestion for the WF 2 stone oven to get us back on course.   Williard, any chance you can look into sourcing some insulating fireboard?   A small piece (2 inch thickness) placed under the firebox might help preserve more of the heat within the firebox for baking pizza.  You might also try making a low cost insulating layer by sandwiching some of that foam in a spray can between 2 pieces of concrete board.  I bet that would work well.

Also, I can't remember what kind of temps you can get your WF 2 stone upto.  Can you get 900F on the hearth?  If so, any guesses as to what the temps would be above the pizza?  Can you get at least 900F or higher?   A small fan placed in front of the oven might help it draft even better and reach higher temps as well.  Just some thoughts.

I would really like to see someone pull a beautiful textbook classic 90 second NP margherita out of this thing.  I see a lot of potential and versatility for this oven. 

Chau
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 11:33:46 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2013, 09:28:58 PM »
The insulation is a good idea. I haven't used much of it....kind of provide airspaces where if people want to they can stuff it. I think you can get the WF2S as hot as you like and yes you should be able to pull the hearth forward so you get more top heat and less bottom heat. I use lump coal and hardwood kindling and can add flames on demand with a stick once the bed of coals gets good and hot.
There are a lot of little things to learn.....but all in all it's pretty easy when you have the dough making skills down like you do.
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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 05:33:20 PM »
This would be ideal for my back yard (I'm in Chicago)  what do I have to draw!!!!   

Or how much for the system if I get the bricks my self?

Offline deb415611

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 09:42:00 PM »
willard - not sure if this is still active but here is my very quick, very crude drawing.

can't quite tell if the base is quite wide enough to go three blocks but if so i would go with 3 under and then 2 sideways to lift it up a little.  concrete block base prep area to the left - topped with wood(?) and then finished with a piece of marble and tile.  the other side wood box - concrete blocks with brick floor - topped with wood/tile.   hooks on right of 2 stone for peel and turner.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:55:39 PM by deb415611 »

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 10:07:17 PM »
Another crude drawing, also not so dressed up by most peoples standards I'm sure but I got to thinking how the whole unit could be marketed in a moveable format, kind of like Chau's drawing but with more emphasis on the unit being collapsible into a heavy duty wagon as well as a fold down prep table.  I also like the idea of somehow using the weight of the 2stone top to hold a tool rack.


Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 11:40:37 PM »
Okay, you guys sketch better than me! creative.....yes.... active indeed!
Opening the restaurant on Sunday, burned out is an understatement.
I'm looking for cool axes and a chopping stump...since this is a lump charcoal kindling oven.
I used to get all this slab wood (oak-maple) that was real cheap and wood burn like gasoline.

 
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Offline 2stone

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2013, 12:26:56 AM »
Good luck with the opening Williard.  You will do great.  I have the Fiskar splitting axe.  Works great!

http://www2.fiskars.com/Gardening-and-Yard-Care/Products/Axes-and-Striking-Tools

Offline 2stone

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Re: 2stone Wood Fired Prototype
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2013, 01:08:03 AM »
Thanks, which fiskars model do you have?
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