Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?  (Read 69073 times)

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Offline Woodyhoos

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2008, 01:37:41 PM »
Peter,
  A few weeks ago you helped me with a recipe for a NY style pizza using a bread machine.  Just as I finally chose the exact recipe I was going to make..... I ended up purchasing a KA food processor.  So now I need to start the search again.  I found the thread above, and your detailed Reply (#8, I think).  It is written for a stand mixer, however.  Can I just follow this recipe, ignoring any kneading estimates based on times, and pay attention to the look of the dough?  Or is there a better recipe you might recommend specifically for a food processor.

Thanks,
Woodyhoos


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2008, 01:51:42 PM »
Woodyhoos,

If you plan to use a food processor to make a NY style dough, you may want to take a look at the following thread that describes the methods I use when working with a food processor: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19289.html#msg19289.

Peter

Offline Woodyhoos

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2008, 09:06:54 AM »
My first real homemade pizza experience last night.... I used the recipe from Reply #8 and it turned out fantastic (for the most part, I'll explain below).  I doubled the recipe so I would have 2 pizzas and didn't have to adjust a thing.  After my last horrendous experience with a sticky mess (different recipe, not from this sight) this was a joy.  Let the dough sit in the fridge overnight.  I made 2 pizzas using a no-cook sauce recipe (also a first time experience), shredded my own Richfood and Poly-O mozzarellas and small sections of deli-sliced provo.  One pizza had nothing else (for the kids) and the second one had pepperoni, bacon, and fresh basil leaves.  I cooked on a pizza screen on top of a pizza stone. 

Everyone raved about the pizza, including a neighbor who stopped by and had 2 slices (after already eating dinner).  The one big problem, unfortunately, was that I couldn't get my oven hot enough.  I decided to use my Primo Grill/smoker (similar to the Big Green Egg if you are familiar with that).  (For those familiar with this grill, I used thick firebricks as a heat shield, and placed a pizza stone on top of them).  It is a ceramic "oven" that should have no problem getting to 500-600 deg.  But I found out too late that in my rushed prep, I didn't have enough charcoal in it, so over the course of cooking the 2 pizzas, they were being cooked closer to 400.  I think this reduced some of the browning of hte crust, and I am guessing didnt give it the quick rise it might otherwise have had.  But I compensated by cooking longer and the crush still have some crispiness to it.  I look forward to duplicating everything, but with a hotter oven. 

So thanks to the site, and in particular to Peter, for the helpful information.  I look forward to further experimentation, but I think I want to get this style down (and my oven figured out) before I move on.

Woodyhoos

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2008, 09:19:50 AM »
Woodyhoos,

Just keep plugging away at it and you will master the process in no time. Out of curiosity, did you use a food processor to make the dough? Also, did you place the pizza screen with the pizza on it directly on the stone or did you yank the screen out from under the pizza at some point?

BTW, you don't have to limit yourself to the specific recipe in Reply 8. As you will note, that recipe was mainly for winter, or cool weather, use. This time of year, I use 0.25% IDY.

Peter

Offline Woodyhoos

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2008, 10:01:20 AM »
I did use a Food Processor and did it by feel (no times).  The dough balled up on top of the blade after everything became incorporated.  I then pushed it down into the kneading area once or twice to make sure it was actually being needed.  (But remember, I have no idea what I am doing).  The dough came out just as in one of your posts - it was slightly tacky, but not too much, and the tackiness went away as soon as I hand kneaded (which I did for about 45 seconds).

I kept the screen in place the entire time, although I hope to eventually pull it out.  But this time it wasn't cooking very quickly so I was afraid of it folding up.  Also, my pizza stone finally cracked all of the way through, and I didn't trust it to stay together.  Finally, my pizza stone also is extremely dirty.  I made the mistake of using it as a heat shield when smoking some spare ribs one time and it was coated with the drippings.  I didn't want to worry about transferring any flavors to the pizza.  But I do plan to get either a new pizza stone or some unglazed quarry tiles soon and hope to improve to the point of being about to either only  use the screen initially, or mastering a peel and not using one at all.  Although I did find one advantage of the screen was that its grid seemed to be helpful in holding the pizza dough in its fully stretched out shape (by adding some friction), whereas on the cutting board it had a tendency to shrink up a bit more.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2008, 03:58:15 PM »
I recently posted a reply at another thread in which I outlined several steps that I frequently use when making doughs by hand, whether a NY style dough or another type of dough of similar hydration. Since this thread has evolved into a thread mainly to help newbies, many of whom do not have dough mixing equipment, I thought that it might be useful to repeat the content of the abovementioned reply for the benefit of newbies who would like to knead their doughs by hand. Here are the hand kneading tips for a typical dough formulation including flour, water, yeast (IDY), salt, oil, and sugar:

1. If a sieve or hand crank sifter is available, sift the formula flour into a first bowl and add and stir in the IDY. (See Note 2 below if using ADY or fresh yeast instead of IDY.) The IDY can also be sifted along with the flour if the openings of the sieve or sifter are large enough. Sifting the flour will improve the hydration of the flour by incorporating more water into the dough. Unlike ADY, it is not necessary to rehydrate the IDY in warm water. 

2. Put all of the formula water into a second bowl, add the salt, and stir until dissolved, about 30 seconds. When using IDY, it is not necessary to warm up the water (e.g., to around 105 degrees F). Using warm water will only increase the finished dough temperature and accelerate the fermentation of the dough and shorten its window of usability. The water can be cool or even cold right out of the refrigerator. Ideally, for a home refrigerator application, the finished dough temperature should be between 75-80 degrees F. Using cool/cold water should allow one to achieve a finished dough temperature in that range. A thermometer (e.g., an analog or digital instant read thermometer) will be required to measure the finished dough temperature.

3. Add the oil to the bowl with the water/salt mixture. Alternatively, the oil can be added after step 4 below and incorporated into the dough. (Some people feel that the oil interferes with the hydration of the flour if added to the water. On the other hand, adding the oil to the water disperses it more uniformly throughout the dough as it is kneaded into the dough.)

4. Gradually add the flour/yeast mixture to the water/salt mixture a few tablespoons at a time and, using a sturdy spoon, combine the ingredients until it is no longer easy to stir more of the flour/yeast mixture into the dough mass. If desired, a wire whisk can be used at the beginning to improve the hydration of the flour even more, and switch to the spoon when the whisk bogs down. The whisk can take any of the forms shown in the photos below. If the oil was not added in step 3 above, add to the oil to the dough in the mixing bowl and knead into the dough.

5. Using a spatula or a flexible plastic bench knife, scrape the rough dough mass out of the mixing bowl onto a work surface that has been lightly dusted with a bit of the remaining flour/yeast mixture. The bench knife I use is like the one shown at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/bakers-bench-knife but any bench knife can be used, even the plastic ones (as shown, for example, at http://www.bakedeco.com/dept.asp?id=194).

6. Sprinkle the remaining flour/yeast mixture a little bit at a time onto the dough mass and knead into the dough mass after each addition. To facilitate this process, use wet hands or hands dusted with a bit of the flour. It is also possible to use a bench knife, or even two of them for a large dough batch, to turn and knead the dough mass as the remaining flour is added to the dough. For some guidance on how to use a bench knife to help knead the dough, see this video: http://www.monkeysee.com/play/997-pizza-how-to-make-dough-by-hand-part-two. If the dough is hard to knead for any reason, let the dough rest from time to time during the kneading process. This will allow the flour to better hydrate and will allow the gluten structure to relax and become less elastic, making it easier to knead the dough. 

7. Continue kneading until the dough is smooth and malleable yet a bit tacky. Resist the temptation to add more flour. As the hand kneading continues, the wetness of the dough should gradually diminish and disappear. If the dough really sticks to the fingers and to the work surface (the dough will usually pull away in strands as it is pulled away from the work surface), add additional flour, a quarter teaspoon or half teaspoon at a time, and knead into the dough with each such addition. If the dough is too dry, add more water, about a half teaspoon at a time, and knead to incorporate. If more flour and/or water are used in this manner, note the total amounts of each added. This might help modify the dough formulation for future dough batches, especially if a scale is used to weigh the flour and water.

8. Another dough kneading method that can also be used as part of a hand kneading regimen is the one shown in Images 4a-4c at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm.

Note 1: It is also possible to add the salt to the flour rather than to the water in the mixing bowl. The same also applies to sugar (if called for in the dough formulation). However, adding both the salt and sugar to the water helps them dissolve faster and better. If honey is used in lieu of sugar, it can be added to the water in the mixing bowl or to the dough in the bowl as it is being mixed and kneaded. The honey can be warmed up slightly to make it flow better but that step is optional.

Note 2: If ADY is used instead of IDY, it should be rehydrated in a small amount of the formula water at about 105 degrees F for about 10-15 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the formula water or to the rest of the ingredients in the mixing bowl. If fresh (cake) yeast is used, it can either be rehydrated in tepid water (a portion of the formula water) at around 80-90 degrees F, or simply be crumbled into the mixing bowl.

Note 3: If weights of ingredients are used and one of the dough calculating tools is used (e.g., at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html or http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), it is recommended that a bowl residue compensation of 1.5-2% be used in the tool to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

If one has an electric hand mixer, another kneading regimen that combines use of the electric hand mixer and hand kneading is described at Reply 30 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36489.html#msg36489. It will be noted that many of the steps suggested above are also incorporated in the procedures described in that post.

Peter

EDIT (9/21/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the nonworking Woodstone link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20140330190734/http://woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm

Offline tsmys

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2009, 07:36:14 PM »
Hi Guys,

Just a couple of quick questions about storage containers.  Is it OK to use a square container?  Also, when using a "Tupperware" type container, should the lid be sealed or left slightly ajar?  Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2009, 09:06:23 PM »
tsmys,

I don't recommend a square or rectangular container for dough that is to be used to make round pizzas because it makes it more difficult to reshape a square or rectangular dough ball into a round one without mangling it or making it overly elastic because of the reshaping. If you plan to make dough for a square or rectangular pizza, such as a Sicilian style pizza, you could use a square or rectangular storage container.

If a dough ball is to be held overnight, you should be able to use a tight fitting lid. However, if there is a lot of yeast in the dough or the dough is very warm going into the storage container where there is a risk of the dough expanding too quickly and producing a lot of gases, you might either use a sheet of plastic wrap to cover the storage container or else use a lid with a small hole in the center. That will allow the gases of fermentation to escape while retaining the moisture of condensation. The Lehmann NY style doughs are low-yeast doughs, so the risk of the dough "blowing" and popping the lid is almost nonexistent. I personally don't leave the lid ajar because I don't want the surface of the dough to dry out.

Peter

Offline tsmys

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2009, 11:21:12 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for the quick reply.  I'm getting ready to try my first Lehmann's dough and want to reduce the variables as much as possible so I can go back and figure out what I screwed up without too much trouble. ;D  As you can tell I'm brimming with confidence!  I've been using zip-lock bags with a small section of the seal left unsealed but I can see my zip-lock budget getting way out of hand not to mention the landfill issues.  I'm assuming from your reply that the lids on metal cans don't seal enough to cause any expansion issues.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #69 on: March 12, 2009, 12:26:30 PM »
I'm assuming from your reply that the lids on metal cans don't seal enough to cause any expansion issues.

tsmys,

I have used cookie tins with fairly tight fitting lids without any problem. Usually, however, I will open the tins to check out the dough to see how it is doing. The advantage of using glass containers and some plastic containers is that you can see what is happening to the dough without having to remove the lids.

Peter


Offline tsmys

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2009, 03:46:15 PM »
Thanks Peter,

Caught Alton Brown's pizza show last night.  It really helped fill in some blanks for me.  Also watched a u-tube video you had recommended in Foodblogger's thread "Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina".  That helped a bunch also.  Would recommend both for all newbies.

Offline dbsoccer

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2009, 01:37:26 AM »
Hi Peter,

Per your suggestion I read (skimmed actually) this thread. It was very helpful. My one question is with the technique you outline for Pizzzagirl way back at the start. I don't recall the 'resting' period autoclyse (spelling is probably wrong). Is it there and I missed it or was it not there.

I need to more carefully read this and I also need to check out the crust stretching Youtube clip.

Brent

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2009, 10:20:27 AM »
Brent,

You are correct. The autolyse or similar rest period is not there. The Lehmann NY style dough recipe is a commercial recipe and does not call for using an autolyse or similar rest period. In fact, you will find very few pizza operators who use the classic Calvel (Prof. Raymond Calvel) autolyse or even a pseudo-autolyse or quasi-autolyse rest period. A few artisan pizza operators do use it. Also, many of our members use the autolyse and similar practices, both for the Lehmann NY style and other pizza styles. I like autolyse for certain types of doughs but not for others. I have tried autolyse for the Lehmann NY style but don't regularly use it.  In your reading, you may note that a lot of people combine all of the typical ingredients of a dough, such as flour, water, yeast and salt, and let that dough rest for a period of time. They may refer to the rest period as an autolyse rest period. However, that is not correct. At that point, the dough is fermenting. A classic autolyse entails combining only flour and water and letting that mixture rest before adding other ingredients. A good place to learn more about autolyse is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22758.html#msg22758, and particularly Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856.

Peter

Offline occifer19

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2009, 07:53:15 PM »
Boys and girls........I just finished making my pies with Toms recipe for the home cook. I've been looking for this crust for 20 years..............I took some time off...................and it was just what I was looking for.........crunchy, with body and good flavor. I mixed the dough for about 15 min. let it raise twice, baked @ 520 degs middle of oven, on a stone, 11 minutes, kinda. WOW, what a pizza.

All I have to do now is do it again, and I can die a happy man...............

This web site is awsome..........thanks to everyone...........Mike Hoffman :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2009, 08:04:07 PM »
Mike,

I am glad that Tom's dough recipe worked out so well for you.

It sounds like you made some changes to the dough management and did not refrigerate the dough. Can you elaborate a bit further how you made and managed the dough, including any changes to the recipe itself and the times used?

Peter

Offline occifer19

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2009, 03:13:42 PM »
Mike,

I am glad that Tom's dough recipe worked out so well for you.

It sounds like you made some changes to the dough management and did not refrigerate the dough. Can you elaborate a bit further how you made and managed the dough, including any changes to the recipe itself and the times used?

Peter
                  I didn't follow the recipe exactly because I couldn't measure the ingredents that precise. I did let it raise twice then made the pizzas. I forgot to say I trippled the dough. Kept it moist and just let is raise twice. It came out friggin unbeliveable. I'm making it again Friday just to make sure I can do it again.
                 I palced the yeast in the flour water,  salt, and alittle sugar in the mixing bowl. Added the flour and mixed it for about 15 minutes, not at the ball stage but like a stiff batter. Then finished it with more flour till it was still tacky. I'll do it again friday and take better notes..........I'll let you know again............Thanks  Peter




                   Pete...........can't get around to the pie today...gettin ready for the 4th..........I'll hit it next week and do it by the numbers and get back to you.......................Mikey
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:36:16 PM by occifer19 »

Offline occifer19

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2009, 02:53:47 PM »
Pete
        I just made pizza again today, was great..........

       4 cups unbleached high gluten flour
       1 1/2 cups + 4 Tablespoons 100 deg water
       1 teaspoon idy
       1 teaspoon salt
       1 teaspoon olive oil
       
            Mix yeast with flour

             Dis. salt in water, add to mixing bowl, paddle at first. Add enough flour for a stiff batter. Mix

            for 10 minutes. Add  enough flour to form a ball with dough hook, but still tacky. add oil, Mix for 5

            minutes, divide dough into 2 parts, kneed, oil, cover with plastic wrap. Let rise 2 hrs. kneed, let

            rise again. Ready for pizza

            Bake @ 520 degs.  2 racks up from bottom, About 10 minutes. On a stone..........Killer Pizza

                                                  Mike Hoffman

           PS     What do you think   Pete?   :pizza:


           Almost forgot, when I pat out my dough, then try and streach it it gets thinner in a few places

          is this because I don't roll my balls enough to remove the seams and that is where it gets thin ?



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #77 on: July 09, 2009, 12:10:37 PM »
Mike,

From what I can tell from your description, it looks like you converted Tom Lehmann's cold fermentation method to a short-term room temperature version. In the process, you also reduced the amount of salt and oil from the basic Lehmann dough formulation values. To get back to those values, I estimate that you would need to use a bit less than 1 3/4 t. salt and a bit less than 1 1/4 t. oil. These are my best estimates since you used volume measurements.

Can you tell me how long you kneaded the two dough balls after the division (and was it a machine knead or a hand knead after the division), and also how long the second dough rise was, and what size pizzas you made? Also, can you tell me what method you used to measure out the flour and water by volume? I estimate that the total dough batch weight you used was around 32 ounces, or around 16 ounces per dough ball.

There are many potential causes of thin spots, but I think I should be able to better respond to that issue once you answer the questions I posed above.

Peter

Offline occifer19

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #78 on: July 09, 2009, 03:06:05 PM »
Peter, I kneaded the dough balls about 5 minutes by hand and could still see a seam.

The second rise was a little over 1 1/2 hours.............I ran out of time

I measured the flour and water by cup. don't have a scale..........yet.      made 2 13" pies about

After reading more about pizzas It said it takes lomger for the dough to relax using high gluten

flour. I though I would try more kneading by hand after the dough is done, then 24 hours in

reefer and try it again...............after 2 hours at room Temp.

Pete......after a dumb ass attack I thought about it and the way I knead the dough may be the problem
I do it by hand not on a bench, I streach the dough from top to bottom, then pinch the bottom. I think that is putting a seam in the dough, not taking it out. I'll try the bench method to remove the seam...........Thanks Mikey
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 04:32:45 PM by occifer19 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's dough tips for the amatuer pizza maker at home ?
« Reply #79 on: July 10, 2009, 08:45:47 PM »
Mikey,

I wondered whether the problem was due to underkneading or possibly excessive hydration. What I was looking for when I asked you how you measured out the flour and water was more specific than your brief answer. For example, if you look at the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, you will see a pulldown menu entitled Measurement Method. Depending on which Measurement Method you use, the weight of the flour will vary, often quite considerably, and can materially affect the hydration of the dough. For example, if you used the Textbook method, I come up with an estimated hydration of around 67% for 4 cups of high-gluten flour (I used the KASL for the calculation) and 1 1/4 c. + 4 T. water; if you used the Medium method, I come up with an estimated hydration of over 72%. Both of those numbers are very much on the high side, and if either of those numbers is correct, I can see how you could end up with thin spots, specifically, because the dough is overly hydrated and very extensible (stretchy). A typical hydration for a high-gluten flour and for the Lehmann NY style dough formulation is around 63%. It's possible that you are close to that, but I can't tell with any certainty based on what you have reported.

If you used roughly 16 ounces of dough (my estimate) to make a roughly 13" pizza, that translates to a thickness factor of about 0.12. That is significantly greater than the 0.09-0.105 thickness factor that most members use for the Lehmann NY style. To get back to the Lehmann thickness factor, you would have to make your pizzas about 14"-15" in diameter.

I mention the above differences (and others in earlier posts) to demonstate that what you have been doing is a fairly material deviation from the Lehmann NY style, and also to highlight some of the differences that can creep into a pizza when using volume measurements or when you try to estimate volume equivalents to weights. You might want to consider starting a new thread directed specifically to your particular dough formulation so that it is clear that your dough formulation is not the basic Lehmann dough formulation.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 07:41:38 PM by Pete-zza »