NY style progress

[NodsToNothing]

Its been a little while since my last post (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21293.msg214776.html), but I've continued to experiment with methods/recipes.

I've started to incorporate my broiler with positive results. Tonight's pizza was a bit spur of the moment, so I used Pete-zza's "emergency" Lehmann recipe found here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251

100%, King Arthur BF, 202g
63%, Water, 127g
1.75%, Salt, 5/8 t.
1%, Oil, a bit less than 1/2 t.
0.7%, ADY, 1/2 t.

I let half the dough sit with all of the water, salt, and yeast for 15 mins, then added the oil and remaining flour and kneaded until the flour was incorporated and the ball was mostly smooth. I let it rise for 2 hours in an unheated oven with a pot of boiled water.

Oven was preheated for ~40 mins @ 500, and another ~15 mins with the broiler turned on (broiler is underneath the oven). I had the stone in the lowest rack position in an attempt to focus on cooking the bottom. The pizza stayed in the oven for right around 6 minutes (switched away from broiler mode) before being transferred to the broiler drawer for an additional 2 minutes.

I find the results are generally good. It finishes the top of the pizza before the crust becomes too dry, and adds a depth of flavor to the cheese/toppings that I haven't had when using only the oven. An 8-minute bake that includes some time in the broiler is MUCH better than 8-9 minutes only in the oven, in my experience.

I was very pleased with the dough, especially considering it was a 2 hour dough. I'm planning to use the same recipe but adapted for a cold fermentation period in the future.

A couple issues that I hope to solve:
1. The bottom of the pizza was not raw, but as you can see in the pictures, it could use a little more color. I'm wondering if this can be solved by changing the ratio of oven time to broiler time (maybe more like 7 minutes in the oven, 1-1.5 in the broiler), or possibly using a cast iron pan/steel plate instead of a stone.
 
2. There seems to be a "ring" of nice coloration from the broiler that covers all of the cheese/toppings, but doesn't cover the entirety of the crust (similar to what is sometimes seen in modified Weber grills, for anyone familiar).

All in all, this was probably the best pizza I have made, and I ate much more of it than necessary

[Tdavis]

Nodstonothing, your crumb looks nice and soft. Nice work for a 2hour dough. A sheet of steel would defintly help you get the bottom darker. What kind of stone are you using? Also, if you have a large enough skillet or griddle, you can put your pizza on that and place it on a stove burner(s) after you pull it from the broiler.

[mkevenson]

 Nods, I agree more heat on bottom less on top. I generally bake without the broiler till I get a decent color on the bottom but not quite there, turn on the broiler for extra top heat and by the time the top is looking good the bottom is finished from the stone heat.
Good looking pies!!!!!

Mark

[Chicago Bob]

Nods,
Good work there and nice look'in pie. It sounds like you have the same type of oven as mine...is yours gas? If you put that stone directly on the floor of the oven you will have all the bottom heat you'll ever want. I can easily do 4 min NY'rs and the oven isn't even turned up all the way. That is sort of key to how I bake...with oven/stone preheated to around 620 degrees(oven dial at 500) I launch and 2 min later turn dial up all the way(this turns the broiler on)and at 3-3 1/2 min I use a metal peel and place the pizza in the broiler drawer for about a minute. I leave the pie on the peel while in the broiler with the broiler drawer open and can just kneel down there and see when I want to pull it. Hope this helps...keep up the good work! 

Bob

[NodsToNothing]

Nods,
Good work there and nice look'in pie. It sounds like you have the same type of oven as mine...is yours gas? If you put that stone directly on the floor of the oven you will have all the bottom heat you'll ever want. I can easily do 4 min NY'rs and the oven isn't even turned up all the way. That is sort of key to how I bake...with oven/stone preheated to around 620 degrees(oven dial at 500) I launch and 2 min later turn dial up all the way(this turns the broiler on)and at 3-3 1/2 min I use a metal peel and place the pizza in the broiler drawer for about a minute. I leave the pie on the peel while in the broiler with the broiler drawer open and can just kneel down there and see when I want to pull it. Hope this helps...keep up the good work! 

Bob

I will definitely give this a try. Thanks!

[NodsToNothing]

I gave it another shot last night - same recipe, but with the yeast ratcheted down to 0.25% and a cold fermentation of ~20 hours.

Cooked the pizza with my stone directly on the floor of the oven, as per Bob's method.

Surprisingly, my bake time ended up being about the same overall - almost exactly 8 minutes, with about 2 of those spent in the broiler drawer. Oven was preheated for about an hour at 500. However, this stone placement DID result in much better bottom browning, so I will probably be keeping my stone down there for the foreseeable future.

[Chicago Bob]

Really great looking pizza there Nods. 
What sort of stone you working with...

[NodsToNothing]

Really great looking pizza there Nods. 
What sort of stone you working with...

I actually don't know. Its a smaller stone that came in a set with a wooden peel that I received as a gift a few years ago. No branding on either.   

[Chicago Bob]

Looking at your first pic again.....she was HOT when ya snapped that photo huh?!! 
Nods, next time you are taking a pizza pic to post up here for us....please include a pic of your stone. Thanks.
Bob

[NodsToNothing]

I had 1 more dough ball in the fridge, so this morning I felt inspired to upgrade my undersized, 1/4" thick stone of unknown material and origin with a 16.5x1/2" glazed cordierite stone.

It had an immediate impact, shaving 2 minutes off the bake time and improving oven spring a lot (although an extra 36 hours in the fridge probably didn't hurt either). It ended up spending 4 minutes on the stone and 2 in the broiler. Next time I'll probably try 5 minutes on the stone to give the undercrust some extra crispiness.

In a way it probably wasn't such a bad thing to work with a subpar stone for so long.

[Chicago Bob]

Nods,
That is a great look'in pizza pie! Good move on the new stone. Is there a particular reason why you chose a "glazed" stone?
Bob

[NodsToNothing]

Nods,
That is a great look'in pizza pie! Good move on the new stone. Is there a particular reason why you chose a "glazed" stone?
Bob

Not particularly - it was just what was available to me. It doesn't have any raised grooves or "feet" on the underside, which isn't glazed, so I can always flip it over and see if there's any difference in results.

[NodsToNothing]

Lately I've been working on making changes to the way I handle my dough and top my pizzas. I think that I was previously leaving too much of a crust when opening dough balls, and leaving less has made for a flavor improvement since there is more room for the good stuff.

I've also been experimenting with some different topping styles. A local pizza place in Cincinnati has a unique way of using a light layer of sauce under the cheese with dollops of sauce on top. I like it because it features the sauce as a bit of a topping in its own right, and alternating between extra saucy bites and extra cheesy bites is satisfying to me. I've used Hormel Natural Choice Uncured Pepperoni on my last couple attempts, and it is my favorite pepperoni to date due to the smaller size and fresh flavor. And pineapple is always a welcome addition.

I used basically the same dough recipe as above, but with an added 0.75% honey. This particular pizza cold fermented in the fridge for ~48 hours. I think there's still a lot of room for improvement in my dough recipe, even given the limitations of my oven setup. But my recent attempts have reminded me that after the science of dough formulations, there is still the art of handling and topping, both of which can have BIG impacts on the final flavor.

[Chicago Bob]

Great looking pizza there NTN, you done real good! 
Since you mentioned honey, here's a killer pie you may want to try...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html
It's a "Jerry Mac" and he puts a nice 'lil twist on the Science aspect you mentioned.
Keep up the good work man. 
Bob

[Pete-zza]

Since you mentioned honey, here's a killer pie you may want to try...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html
It's a "Jerry Mac" and he puts a nice 'lil twist on the Science aspect you mentioned.

Bob,

While JeirryMac took advantage of the science needed to make his preferment-based pizzas, he was adamantly anti-science and pro-art: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2731.0.html. I used to tease him quite a bit on this subject but there was always a mutual respect for what we were doing.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

While JeirryMac took advantage of the science needed to make his preferment-based pizzas, he was adamantly anti-science and pro-art: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2731.0.html. I used to tease him quite a bit on this subject but there was always a mutual respect for what we were doing.

Peter

Yes, I know of his views and your friendly exchanges and that is what I was thinking about in my post to NTN  ......I should have wrote "Science" since NTN is new here   

[NodsToNothing]

Great looking pizza there NTN, you done real good! 
Since you mentioned honey, here's a killer pie you may want to try...http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html
It's a "Jerry Mac" and he puts a nice 'lil twist on the Science aspect you mentioned.
Keep up the good work man. 
Bob

I actually did give this recipe a shot a couple weeks ago based on how good others' results looked. My pie looked equally delicious out of the oven, but it was a little too soft and bready for my taste. That is what led me to using a smaller amount of honey in this more standard Lehmann recipe. I think it does help with color, but seemed to make less of a difference in the longer cold ferment. Even in the 2 day cold ferment version of this same dough, it was still verging on too soft for my liking, despite using such a small amount of honey. Could be that honey just isn't for me.