My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project

[gooddayz]

Hello Pizzamaking forum!

I know that I have not posted for quite some time and though I have not been actively here, I have not been gone.

As you can see from my last post (tartine inspired pizza dough experiment with Cake Yeast), sadly, around a year ago now, I had been working with firebricks and pizza stone on my grill trying to reproduce the effects of a brick oven or commercial pizza oven.  After quite some time of working with that setup, I came up with a new prototype for a gas grill pizza oven insert.  I have been working very hard to turn the prototype into a production ready design, and finally have an excellent consumer ready product.

I know that I am in murky waters here, so I want to start by saying that I am not trying to sell anyone anything here.

I learned so much about the pizzamaking craft here in this forum, and am at the point where I feel that I am able to contribute something to it with my research and development.  I would love to get any feedback that you have regarding my prototype, and I know that you will be brutally honest, so I welcome your feedback.

I currently have a website (that does not offer sales in any way) with all of the details, and I also have a kickstarter project going.  I just launched it yesterday morning, and I am already at 25% of my goal in 36 hours, so I feel like people like it.  I'm really hoping that you (collectively) will, as I truly value your opinions.

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone here, am not asking for anyone's money (though you are more than welcome to check out my project and I welcome your support should you choose to do so) or looking to spam or solicit you.

I am not putting anything here other than a picture to illustrate the idea (and again, look at my prior post and you'll see how The Brick Oven Box developed from a pile of firebricks, pizza stones and aluminum foil), a link to my website, and a link to my kickstarter project.

Thank you in advance for your time, consideration and hopefully, your feedback.

Thank you all!

Best regards,

Tim Case

www.bakerstonebox.com

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1963477916/the-brick-oven-box-project

[Jet_deck]

My only concern would be that the bottom stone would get to hot after a period of time.  But I think the entire concept has alot of merit.  It is the story "preached" after I built the 10 stone.  Thanks for sharing, and good luck.

[gooddayz]

My only concern would be that the bottom stone would get to hot after a period of time.  But I think the entire concept has alot of merit.  It is the story "preached" after I built the 10 stone.  Thanks for sharing, and good luck.

Thank you for the reply Jet_deck.

I did encounter that issue in the first few prototypes, however, I have found that we have been able to minimize the heat on the base by using the hood portion and not having to seal off the grill.  The hood that we use enables us to maintain an almost even temperature between the base stone and the top stone, and when cooking Neapolitan style, we can actually attain a hotter top stone by heating with all burners on high, and then turning down or off the middle burner and running the two outside burners on high.  We then regulate the base stone temp with the middle burner.

All of the pizzas (17 total that night) in the demo video on our kickstarter project were baked over a period of 3 1/2 hours, with the grill on the entire time.  The base stone never made it over 850 F and that's only because we allowed it to get that hot to test some cooking times.

Developing The Brick Oven Box has been a very interesting process, and I have learned so much about managing temps, dough formulations, etc. throughout the journey.  There are some demo videos on the website if you're interested in learning more.

[petef]

gooddayz, excellent quality & production on your videos. Looks professional. I visited your website and read through everything quickly. Several things come to mind...

1.) I'd like to see pics of the IR thermometer pointing down onto to the bottom stone and also pointing upwards to the top stone. Couple that with a pic of the pizza produced, stating the bake time. You could do that for each style pizza.

2.) I love the way you market this oven towards uses other than pizza!  Steaks & cookies!!! That's great! I'd love to see pics of as many uses other than pizza that you can achieve.

3.) Perhaps the most important thing to achieving good results is the BTU rating of the gas grill being used. You should state the model gas grill you use and it's grill area dimensions and BTU rating. You should also test your oven on different sized grills and determine the MINIMUM grill size and BTU rating required to achieve targeted pizza bake times. For example, x BTU's minimum required for a 90 second bake, and x BTUs minimum for a 5 minute bake.

Also, excellent work, from a marketing perspective.

---pete---

[scott123]

I have a new invention that I'm marketing through kickstarter as well. It's called the wheel. It's quite revolutionary, really.  Not only will it allow you travel over flat surfaces, but when you spin it, unicorns will appear.

Seriously, though, how many times must the 2stone grill insert be 're-invented?' Perhaps Willard (2stone's owner) isn't all that litigious, so maybe you might not get sued, but just because you don't get taken to court, it doesn't make ripping off other people's ideas okay- intentionally or unintentionally. At least Bert (MightyPizzaOven) is conscientiously attempting to improve upon the 2stone concept by adding additional features (such as a chimney with an adjustable vent), but your configuration, with it's enclosed box/bottom stone heat blockage, is a major step backward from the 2stone design.

Bake Neapolitan Style Pizzas in 60 to 90 seconds!

60 seconds? Really?  On what planet?  Smoking which crack?

And this "I'm not asking for anyone's money"  garbage is total BS.  If you post a Kickstarter link, you're asking for money. I sincerely hope that no one here is stupid enough to fall for your unoriginal and inferior ideas and specious claims.

[jeff v]

Actually, never mind. Best of luck.

[Pete-zza]

I have a new invention that I'm marketing through kickstarter as well. It's called the wheel. It's quite revolutionary, really.  Not only will it allow you travel over flat surfaces, but when you spin it, unicorns will appear.

Seriously, though, how many times must the 2stone grill insert be 're-invented?' Perhaps Willard (2stone's owner) isn't all that litigious, so maybe you might not get sued, but just because you don't get taken to court, it doesn't make ripping off other people's ideas okay. At least Bert (MightyPizzaOven) is conscientiously attempting to improve upon the 2stone concept by adding additional features (such as a chimney with an adjustable vent), but your configuration, with it's enclosed box/bottom stone heat blockage, is a major step backward from the 2stone design.

60 seconds? Really?  On what planet?  Smoking which crack?

And this "I'm not asking for anyone's money"  garbage is total BS.  If you post a Kickstarter link, you're asking for money. I sincerely hope that no one here is stupid enough to fall for your stolen ideas and specious claims.

scott123,

I have not followed all of the details of the Baker Stone Box, but is it possible that you are overreacting? It happens quite frequently that people will reinvent someone else's invention and do so innocently. Innocent people might even go to a patent attorney and have a patent application filed. In such cases, the patent attorney will usually conduct searches of the prior art before filing or to determine which features might be patentable. They might even find third-party patents that will be a potential problem to the innocent inventor. People who rip off ideas of others don't go near patent attorneys. They would have to make certain declarations that would be false and subject them to severe penalties.

Peter

[scott123]

Fair enough, Peter.  Although Tim has been a member here for a year, it is possible that he isn't aware of the 2stone.  Still, though, to go into business with a new 'invention' without doing the research to see if it's already been invented shows a great deal of shortsightedness.

Since 'stolen' implies previous knowledge of the 2stone, I'll give Tim the benefit of the doubt and edit my post.  As far as my other statements go, though, I stand by them.

Btw, I was perusing through Tim's videos looking for undercrust shots.  It lasted for only a fraction of a second, and it took me a considerable amount of effort to get a screen grab, but I was able to get a shot of an undercrust (see below).  In this kind of configuration, in order to achieve decent top coloring in a short amount of time, this is the kind of incineration you'll see on the undercrust. In no way would that quantity of char ever qualify as a passable Neapolitan pizza.

[petef]

... It happens quite frequently that people will reinvent someone else's invention and do so innocently. Innocent people might even go to a patent attorney and have a patent application filed. In such cases, the patent attorney will usually conduct searches of the prior art before filing or to determine which features might be patentable....

Pete-zza, I tend to agree with you. I've also experimented with my own design of a gas grill pizza oven and since then I've also viewed other forum members attempts at the same. I see similarities amongst all the designs even though we've all worked independently at the initial stages. The truth is, it's a relatively simple concept and anyone working diligently on the concept & problems associated with getting even top & bottom heat is going to wind up with a similar design.

As far as patents & profits go, I say more power to the first one to patent & market the idea. Many people
have the tendency to invent things and never do anything with their creations. As a result, the world looses out on great products that never come to market.

---pete---

[ringkingpin]

A link to the patent.  I smell something cooking and it's not a pizza.  

http://www.google.com/patents/US7686010?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false


It would appear to me that Nishan didn't do his due diligence on bringing this to market. 

http://www.bakerstonebox.com/

Nishan Pilibosian:

Nishan has been working in the fields of brand development and advertising for almost 5 years. One of his most successful clients is now a leading manufacturer of pellet-fueled barbeque grills. He has gained a great deal of knowledge regarding the barbeque industry and manufacturing process through his experience with this client over the past few years. We have been able to use his expertise to assist in developing our brand, our product and our project

[scott123]

A link to the patent.  I smell something cooking and it's not a pizza.  

http://www.google.com/patents/US7686010?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cheffrey, nice detective work.  I wasn't aware that Willard had obtained a patent.

[jeff v]

Now we're patent attorneys?

[scott123]

Now we're patent attorneys?

Jeff, do we need to be patent attorneys to see the obvious similarities between these two products?  What's the difference?  Ceramic vs. metal walls?  You don't need to be an attorney to know that if Willard takes Tim to court, Tim won't have a leg to stand on.

[ringkingpin]

Now we're patent attorneys?

if this was directed towards me, no, I'm not a patent attorney, I'm a metal fabricator.  I have used many IP lawyers and recently had someone's trade mark removed after they tried to go after me for something silly but that's neither here nor there.  I was just simply trying to point out the similarities between the two designs and to show the patent.  I don't think anyone claims to be a patent lawyer but I think PETEZZAAA  was an IP guy.  I'm gonna go make some pizza.  



BTW, Jeff, we have been LOVING your Pasta!  Man is that stuff DA BOMB!  Lemme know if you ever want to hotrod your machine, that would be fun!  I hope you're still making it... it's... so... good!

[jeff v]

What about build a better mousetrap ?

When people make accusatory statements, predictions on legal outcomes on patents and ask about smoking crack it takes the convo somewhere it doesn't need to go. Why do that? If you were so deeply offended why not send a pm or report the thread? What did you hope to accomplish here? And what qualifies you to state these things as fact?

[scott123]

When people make accusatory statements, predictions on legal outcomes on patents and ask about smoking crack it takes the convo somewhere it doesn't need to go.

Talking about 'where the conversation needs to go' is, imo, exactly where the conversation doesn't need to be going. You are not a moderator, so stop acting like one. If you have a problem with any of my posts, report them.

I didn't report this post or PM the poster because this is a public issue.  People need to be aware of the inferiority/questionable legality of this product so they don't fall prey and donate. Members should be allowed to present ideas, even horrifically bad ones, and other members have a right to refute those ideas. The OP specifically requested 'brutally honest' feedback, did he not?

This is a white oven.  White ovens will never be able to successfully make Neapolitan pizza. This has been proven countless times on this forum.  This is a tremendously worse mousetrap.

[petef]

This is a white oven.  White ovens will never be able to successfully make Neapolitan pizza. This has been proven countless times on this forum.  This is a tremendously worse mousetrap.

Scott, what is a White Oven?

From my own experience building & experimenting with gas grill pizza ovens, I suspect you are correct in questioning the ability of this oven to successfully make Neapolitan pizza. It might be possible but only with a very high BTU gas grill.

On the patent issue, there might be enough differences to get past that. I say this because his design is different because the air flow is dramatically different. I'd also say that difference in air flow is what makes his oven a "worse mousetrap", as you put it. Worse for making Neapolitan pizza, but it might be better for baking a variety of foods besides Neapolitan pizza. For example, NY style pizza in 6 minutes, cookies, steaks, and breads.

BTW: One of my favorite shows is Shark Tank, so this kickstart website and the whole concept of funding new business ideas intrigues me. It will be interesting to see where this project goes. I'm not taking sides. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible.

As always, Scott, I appreciate your expertise.

---pete---

[Tscarborough]

A white oven has an external firebox.

[scott123]

Scott, what is a White Oven?

A white oven is an enclosed baking space with a heat source below it.  If you put a box on a flame, the bottom of the box will always be exponentially hotter than the top, especially the inner ceiling, where heat is so critical for Neapolitan browning.  The only mitigating factor for bottom heat source configurations is to utilize convection by opening the box and channeling hot air through the baking chamber (LBE, 2stone, your own computer case approach).  Even by channeling hot air, though, Neapolitan is close to impossible without, as you mentioned, a freakishly high BTU burner along with a flawless ceiling setup (air disrupting director, etc.)

[jeff v]

Talking about 'where the conversation needs to go' is, imo, exactly where the conversation doesn't need to be going. You are not a moderator, so stop acting like one. If you have a problem with any of my posts, report them.

I didn't report this post or PM the poster because this is a public issue.  People need to be aware of the inferiority/questionable legality of this product so they don't fall prey and donate. Members should be allowed to present ideas, even horrifically bad ones, and other members have a right to refute those ideas. The OP specifically requested 'brutally honest' feedback, did he not?

This is a white oven.  White ovens will never be able to successfully make Neapolitan pizza. This has been proven countless times on this forum.  This is a tremendously worse mousetrap.

And you're not Ralph Nader so stop acting like him. The market is fully capable of deciding if this product is great, crap, or needs improving. As it did with the 2stone which helped it get better.

Brutally honest is one thing and stating opinions as facts are another one entirely. You made patent accusations and comments before you even knew if Willard had one. Then you said  the OP "wouldn't have a leg to stand on" if he was taken to court. That is ridiculous and totally irresponsible. That irresponsibility can also ruin someone's business. Now petef thinks there may be enough difference to get past the patent issue. Who knows? You? Him? Which was my original point-Now we're patent attorneys?

Speaking as a member and not a moderator,
Jeff