Author Topic: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project  (Read 10444 times)

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enter8

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2012, 07:53:27 PM »
Looking at the designs on the Tim's website, it appears the baking chamber is open at the back to allow hot air/flame to come up and over the pizzas. This would make it more like a "gueulard" oven than a "true" white oven that Scott123 describes.


Offline scott123

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2012, 08:12:16 PM »
Which was my original point-Now we're patent attorneys?

So none of the members here can conjecture over whether or not a new prototype infringes on a patent because we're not patent attorneys?! Are you serious?

Looking at the designs on the Tim's website, it appears the baking chamber is open at the back to allow hot air/flame to come up and over the pizzas. This would make it more like a "gueulard" oven than a "true" white oven that Scott123 describes.

I originally saw three walls in the diagrams and thought they all contacted the bottom stone, but now I see that the bottom stone has a gap in the back, making this a gray oven and not a white one. I stand corrected in that aspect.  At the same time, though, I still strongly believe that a balanced 60 second bake is impossible in this oven with a typical 50,000ish BTU grill.

Offline jeff v

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2012, 08:32:03 PM »
So none of the members here can conjecture over whether or not a new prototype infringes on a patent because we're not patent attorneys?! Are you serious?

Conjecture? I know you were just trying to protect people from falling prey to the evil oven salesman and all, but you're not going to get me going down that path. I was pretty clear on what I said as were you.

Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline jeff v

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2012, 08:36:49 PM »
Scott- I'm done w this conversation since we've both aired what we thought.

Thanks,
Jeff
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline petef

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2012, 01:30:56 AM »
....I still strongly believe that a balanced 60 second bake is impossible in this oven with a typical 50,000ish BTU grill.

Scott, I paid close to $900 for my Weber Genesis grill which is only rated at 38,000 BTUs for the 3 burners. I'd consider it an above average gas grill. So I'd say you are being very generous at 50,000 BTUs for a typical gas grill. I'm fairly certain that my 38,000 BTUs could never produce a balanced 60 second bake using any pizza oven contraption that did not introduce more heat. Best I've ever done using my own pizza oven contraption is about 5 minutes.


gooddayz, this is where you are headed for trouble. The average grill in the 25,000 to 38,000 BTU is not going to produce enough heat for a 60 to 90 second bake. You could avoid much trouble and critique by doing a better job of specifying minimum grill requirements to achieve the 60 to 90 second bake. I realize you mention on your website that results vary depending upon the grill, but that's not good enough. You need to specify BTU ratings. If I were you, I'd also put in a disclaimer that not all gas grills are powerful enough to produce the Neapolitan Pizza. If you get anything out of this thread, this is the most important issue. Being less than 100% honest will bring you big trouble and lots of negative reviews.

---pete---


« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 01:32:29 AM by petef »

Offline gooddayz

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2012, 04:17:16 AM »
Wow…what more can I say really…

So, when I said that I expected brutal honesty, this is definitely not what I had in mind, and that reaction was by no means the reaction that I anticipated.

I apologize for the delayed response; between working a full-time job, developing a product and running a Kickstarter project, there are simply not enough hours in the day for everything that needs to be accomplished.

I want to address the issues/topics that were raised as to show that I am not some “evil oven salesman”, and that I was genuinely looking for the opinions of those that I respected and regarded as pizza aficionados.

Scott123:

I am sorry that you feel that the world does not need another version of the 2Stone Pizza Grill.  I tend to disagree, due to the fact that if the 2Stone had been more widely advertised and available in a retail environment, or if there had been another option that was, I would have purchased it and would have never developed The Brick Oven Box in the first place.

I needed (wanted) to be able to make pizzeria quality pizzas at home, and did not have the space to put a WFO in my 8’ x 8’ townhome patio.  I set out on an amazingly frustrating, yet enjoyable, adventure of trying to recreate the effects of a WFO on my gas grill.  As you can see from my post from almost a year ago, I came up with a design that consisted of firebricks, pizza stones and aluminum foil.  I spent countless hours trying to devise a way to refine my design, and that ultimately led me to where I am today.

Once I had my design to where I wanted it, I turned to a patent attorney to help me protect my invention.  Before working on the patent, he recommended that we search for prior art, and that was when I learned of the “High temperature bake oven” by one Mr. Willard Gustavsen (aka, 2Stone).  I was instantly disheartened and thought that the countless hours of work were for nothing.  However, he advised me that my product did not infringe upon Mr. Gustavsen's patent, and that my invention would still be patentable, as it is different and has unique features and qualities.

That is the only reason that you see my project today.  I am not interested in wasting my time and/or money on something that does not have a chance at succeeding.

I am extremely impressed by the business that Mr. Gustavsen has developed, and hope that we will be able to co-exist within this space. 

This is all that I have to say on that matter, and appreciate you having shared your thoughts and concerns  and hope that we can move past this now. 

Kickstarter:

When I said that I am not asking for anyone’s money, I meant that.  I wanted feedback on the product and its pizza applications, design, etc.

I also indicated that if anyone is interested in backing me, that I would welcome their support.  I apologize if that offended you.

Neapolitan Time Claims, BTU’s, Burnt Pizza, etc.:

The claims of baking Neapolitan Style pizzas in 60 to 90 seconds are based upon results that I have achieved myself.  As petef pointed out, I will need to add a disclaimer that addresses the fact that this may range based upon BTU’s, grill specs, etc.

As you saw by the overly charred bottom on the pizza that you posted, not all pizzas come out perfectly.  The same thing can happen in a WFO.  That particular pizza was an experimental pizza that I made when I had the base stone at 1,015 F…yes, that is one-thousand and fifteen degrees...The pizza cooked (burned) in 55 seconds.  The issue there was the top of the box did not have anywhere near the heat of the base, and therefore the top did not cook appropriately.  The dough formulation was also not one for extremely high heat like that.

That experiment was also done before I fashioned the steel hood that you see in my designs.  Now that I have the steel hood, I am able to keep the base and top of the box at almost the same temp, and when making Neapolitan Pizza, am able to preheat the entire box, turn off the middle burner and continue heating the top stone and am able to achieve hotter top stone temps.  It does take some experimenting based upon your exact grill specs, but that’s actually part of the fun; I equate it to learning the keys to managing a WFO correctly.

The setup that I have done most of my testing on is an older model CharBroil that is rated at 40,000 btu’s with 3 burners (left, middle, right).

I am able to heat to the 800 to 1000 degree range in around 30 to 40 minutes.  The exact times can vary based upon external temps, temp of The Brick Oven Box when it goes on the grill, etc.
And, FYI, if you ever want something from me, i.e.: images or details, feel free to ask me for it.  I assure you that I am simply a fellow pizza lover that developed a way to make pizzas out of necessity, which is the mother-of-all-invention as they say.

Petef & Pete-zza:

Thank you for being a voice of reason throughout the thread.  I do appreciate everyone’s insight and will take your suggestions under consideration.

I hope that if we continue with this thread, you will check out the product and let me know what kind of questions you have.

I am also willing to do a web conference / demonstration to answer questions and show you how it works.

Jeff v - better mouse trap:

EXACTLY!

Gray Oven:
It does allow for air to flow through the chamber.  There are also alternative design options that include for channels to allow for additional air flow within the box.

Thank you all for you input and for checking out my project.  If you would like to continue this thread, then I welcome your questions.  If not, then I wish you all the best and Happy Pizza Making!

Tim

Offline ringkingpin

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 09:02:37 AM »
question, when you get it to the 800 degree mark in the config. that you have now, how hot is it getting on the top stone?

Any underskirt shots of the pizzas made at these temps?

Thanks

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Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 11:04:15 AM »
Tim,

I faced similar thing when I introduced my design at this forum. Scott was tougher on you than me, may be due to your 60 to 90 second claim.

If you read Scott posts you can understand his reason of his skepticism (and  others too).  His extremely knowledgeable in material, heat   transfer …..

My case is similar to yours…  Before I done anything, I hired a very experienced and reputable patent lawyer.  Expect, You beat me to launching on Kickstarter  >:(  I am still hesitating about launching my oven on Kickstarter.. I am not sure if people are willing to pledge for products that they will not receive till couple of month later.

Good luck
Bert,

Offline scott123

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 05:48:34 PM »
Scott was tougher on you than me, may be due to your 60 to 90 second claim.

This.

Tim, either

1. Remove this claim from your advertising.

or

2. Film an unedited, single shot, 90 second bake using a VPN unmalted flour dough, making sure to include a shot of the undercrust.

Perform either task and my tone gets monumentally friendlier.  Until then, though, I view you and your product with the utmost suspicion.

Offline gooddayz

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2012, 02:09:35 AM »
question, when you get it to the 800 degree mark in the config. that you have now, how hot is it getting on the top stone?

Any underskirt shots of the pizzas made at these temps?

Thanks



It depends on what the goal is.  I can typically get the top of the box to be within approximately 40 to 60 (+/-) degrees of the base stone when heating everything together, so somewhere around 750 top and 800 bottom.  When I really want to cook Neapolitan style pizza, I can preheat the top stone a bit, and then heat everything together.  This allows me to actually attain even temps top and bottom, to hotter top stone vs bottom stone temps.  As I mentioned in my last post, I understand that everyone's grill may vary slightly, and it will take some experimenting with "your" exact setup to figure out what works best.

I will work on posting some under-crust shots tomorrow.


Offline petef

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2012, 02:29:28 AM »
Wow…what more can I say really…

So, when I said that I expected brutal honesty, this is definitely not what I had in mind, and that reaction was by no means the reaction that I anticipated.


Tim, don't feel bad. You came across to me as being sincere, but I was still skeptical. Take it all in stride and learn from this experience. What you learn from this thread could help you to avoid negative reviews at the most critical point in the future when you are marketing your oven. I think the lesson here is about testing your invention on various grills and making it perfectly clear in your marketing & descriptions what results people can expect for their particular grill. Go the extra mile to test & understand that and be very clear in your ads.

Honestly, I don't think that Neapolitan Pizza is the goal of most people who might buy your oven. I'm discovering, it's actually a very small percentage of people that have even tasted Neapolitan Pizza. That's why I believe most people would be perfectly happy baking a 6 minute pizza on their average gas grill of less than the BTUs needed to make a true Neapolitan Pizza. I feel like you greatest selling point is the versatility of your gas grill oven. The majority can use it to bake anything from cookies to NY style pizza and as a bonus that smaller group of folks with the large BTU rated grills will be able to do the Neapolitan Pizza. Remember too, when the weather is very hot people would love to do their baking outside on the gas grill rather than heat up their kitchen.

Thanks for the detailed response. :)

---pete---

Offline gooddayz

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2012, 02:59:25 AM »
Tim,

I faced similar thing when I introduced my design at this forum. Scott was tougher on you than me, may be due to your 60 to 90 second claim.

If you read Scott posts you can understand his reason of his skepticism (and  others too).  His extremely knowledgeable in material, heat   transfer …..

My case is similar to yours…  Before I done anything, I hired a very experienced and reputable patent lawyer.  Expect, You beat me to launching on Kickstarter  >:(  I am still hesitating about launching my oven on Kickstarter.. I am not sure if people are willing to pledge for products that they will not receive till couple of month later.

Good luck



Wow!  You have a very cool product!  The pizzas look great, your website looks great, and that's awesome that you got TXCraig to test it for you!

It looks like you definitely encountered some opposition initially as well, however, it appears that you've earned some kudos around here, so good work there.

Sorry about beating you to kickstarter...I know how that feels actually!  A few days before I planned to initially launch, this project launched on Kickstarter (second time that my heart literally sank during this project; #1 - 2Stone, #2 - Uuni...):

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tapaninaho/uuni-a-small-fast-and-affordable-wood-fired-pizza?ref=live

I decided to postpone my project to see what happened with his, and give it a bit of time to be out of the shadow of his project.  It actually worked out for the best because my first video didn't come out exactly as I'd hoped, so we scrapped it and went in a completely different direction, and the response has been pretty good so far.  As they say, "when one door closes, another opens".  As I get older, I realize that it's true, as long as you pay attention to the new door instead of sitting and kicking the old door for closing.

He successfully funded his project and so far we're at 45% funded with 13 days to go, so hopefully we'll do the same.

I really love the look of your product, website and branding.  I truly feel that you'll do well.  Great job!

Let me know if you have any question about the Kickstarter process.  The only reason I ended up there is because I met someone that successfully funded a project and they told me about Kickstarter and their experience.  He has been a great resource throughout the development of my project, and I welcome the chance to pass that along to you; if we don't help eachother, who will???

Keep on being an innovator; without innovation, progress stops.  If we stop progressing, then we will sit by and become complacent, watching the things that we want in life pass us by.

Take care,

Tim



Offline gooddayz

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2012, 03:13:30 AM »
Tim, don't feel bad. You came across to me as being sincere, but I was still skeptical. Take it all in stride and learn from this experience. What you learn from this thread could help you to avoid negative reviews at the most critical point in the future when you are marketing your oven. I think the lesson here is about testing your invention on various grills and making it perfectly clear in your marketing & descriptions what results people can expect for their particular grill. Go the extra mile to test & understand that and be very clear in your ads.

Honestly, I don't think that Neapolitan Pizza is the goal of most people who might buy your oven. I'm discovering, it's actually a very small percentage of people that have even tasted Neapolitan Pizza. That's why I believe most people would be perfectly happy baking a 6 minute pizza on their average gas grill of less than the BTUs needed to make a true Neapolitan Pizza. I feel like you greatest selling point is the versatility of your gas grill oven. The majority can use it to bake anything from cookies to NY style pizza and as a bonus that smaller group of folks with the large BTU rated grills will be able to do the Neapolitan Pizza. Remember too, when the weather is very hot people would love to do their baking outside on the gas grill rather than heat up their kitchen.

Thanks for the detailed response. :)

---pete---


Thank you pete.

I agree; ensuring that the end-user has a clear understanding of what to expect is absolutely important to me.  I think that there will be some revisions to my marketing in regards to Neapolitan Pizza, possibly something to the effect of:

Bake Neapolitan Style Pizzas in around 90 seconds *

* Not all grills will be capable of producing the temperatures required for Neapolitan Style Pizza - Typically requires a grill with xx,xxx BTU's

I agree with you on the market.  I feel that 90% of people would like to have the ability to make pizzeria quality pizzas (and don't know what Neapolitan is) and would love to use their gas grill as an oven during the hot summer months or during large gatherings where additional oven space is needed.  It also produces one heck of a steak, perfectly searing the outside and achieving the temp that you desire throughout the steak.

Thank you for your feedback.  I truly appreciate it!  :)

Tim

Offline gooddayz

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2012, 03:53:47 AM »
This.

Tim, either

1. Remove this claim from your advertising.

or

2. Film an unedited, single shot, 90 second bake using a VPN unmalted flour dough, making sure to include a shot of the undercrust.

Perform either task and my tone gets monumentally friendlier.  Until then, though, I view you and your product with the utmost suspicion.

1)  I have given some consideration to amending the Neapolitan pizza claim, as I can not guarantee that everyone's grill can produce the Neapolitan result. (see reply #32)

2)  I am working on finding a time to do a demo, possibly even tomorrow.  To clarify; I typically use the dough formulation of 1000g 00 Flour, 30g Sea Salt (3%), 550g to 600g water (55% to 60% depending upon humidity, brand of 00 flour, etc.), and 1.25g Italian Natural Brewer's Yeast (.3%) with a 1 hour autolyse, then add salt, mix by hand, and then stretch & folds every 30 minutes for 3 hours (Tartine-inspired), followed by a one hour bench rest, then balled and 48 hour cold ferment or 12 to 16 hour warm ferment.

I have also used the VPN recipe which is a same-day short-term warm ferment as well as the recipe from Enzo Coccia which is a representation of the VPN recipe.  I prefer the longer ferment as it develops better flavor in the dough, however, for purposes of this experiment, I will follow the VPN guidelines with the shorter warm ferment to have a basis of comparison with the VPN dough recipe.

I would love to see some shots of pizzas that you've made with that recipe so I can see what I need The Brick Oven Box to measure up to here.  Do you use the 2Stone or are you fortunate enough to have a WFO?

I look forward to seeing your tone become monumentally friendlier; you'll find that I'm a good person that just loves pizza, people and life.

Have a great day!

Tim



Offline scott123

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2012, 04:12:16 AM »
Honestly, I don't think that Neapolitan Pizza is the goal of most people who might buy your oven.

Pete, there are countless ways to achieve NY style baking times on a grill.  With all the work you've done on your own setup, you should be acutely aware of this.  The market has the 2stone, the Mighty Pizza Oven, the KettlePizza insert and a host of other simple DIY approaches. A $60 fibrament grill stone on a typical gas grill can hit NY bake times.  NY on a grill is child's play. The market is completely oversaturated.

What does NOT exist, though, is a way to make Neapolitan pizza on a grill.  This is the fountain of youth, cold fusion, bigfoot and unicorns wrapped up in one- to match the results of a multi-thousand dollar wood fired oven in a multi-hundred dollar grill setup. This is what probably at least 300 people have tried and failed to achieve in the LBE thread.  This claim is a very big deal and shouldn't be dismissed because the majority of the public may not know what Neapolitan pizza is.

I assure you, if any person can ever invent a device to make Neapolitan pizza on a grill, it will garner them a great deal of money, due to the fact that it can produce something that no other inexpensive device can.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 04:45:59 AM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2012, 04:40:03 AM »
Bake Neapolitan Style Pizzas in around 90 seconds *

* Not all grills will be capable of producing the temperatures required for Neapolitan Style Pizza - Typically requires a grill with xx,xxx BTU's


Sorry, Tim, but x number of BTUs aren't going to guarantee 90 second bakes.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.0.html

I've read through this incredibly long (92 page) thread at least 3 times in the last year.  These are pretty much all people working with 90K to 185K BTU burners. Out of at least 300 attempts, only 2 members broke the 2 minute mark.  And your design, without a skirt covering the grill area outside the device, doesn't even focus every precious BTU up and through your baking area.

If an LBE with two cordierite stones can't guarantee 90 seconds with 90K BTUs, that pretty much means that no BTU number is the magic number to guarantee that bake time.

When I really want to cook Neapolitan style pizza, I can preheat the top stone a bit, and then heat everything together.  This allows me to actually attain even temps top and bottom, to hotter top stone vs bottom stone temps.


While you can, by heating the top stone on it's own, create a more favorable top to bottom heat ratio, it's important to remember that over time, the bottom stone will get hotter and that advantage will be lost.  Unless you're going to take the bottom stone out of the oven between bakes (something that would be extremely unsafe to do), you'll only get the full advantage of the pre-heated ceiling for the first pizza. If this staggered stone pre-heat does produce a 90 second bake, you'll need to be clear in your advertising that it's for the first pizza only- that is if you truly wish to make sure that "the end-user has a clear understanding of what to expect."

Offline MightyPizzaOven

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2012, 09:23:01 AM »

Sorry about beating you to kickstarter...I know how that feels actually!  A few days before I planned to initially launch, this project launched on Kickstarter (second time that my heart literally sank during this project; #1 - 2Stone, #2 - Uuni...):


No You'r not...  ;D. Each device has different features. At the end the consumers will decide. The key is how to reach them... With so many projects that was launched on kickstarter for pizza oven. It may not be right step for me...Thanks for the assisting offer.

A $60 fibrament grill stone on a typical gas grill can hit NY bake times.

Scott, I have not seen anyone make a good NY pie with just a stone...
Bert,

Offline bfguilford

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2012, 11:17:55 AM »
And your design, without a skirt covering the grill area outside the device, doesn't even focus every precious BTU up and through your baking area.

Scott: That depends on the grill. I just went outside and measured my Weber Genesis surface, and this design would actually cover it perfectly. I won't comment on how well it would work, because I don't know.

Barry
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 02:36:33 PM by bfguilford »
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2012, 12:23:10 PM »
...  This is the fountain of youth, cold fusion, bigfoot and unicorns wrapped up in one...

I wanna be at that party.
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Offline ringkingpin

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Re: My Gas Grill Pizza Oven Project
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2012, 12:34:44 PM »
I wanna be at that party.

 :-D :-D NO DOUBT, ME TOO!  :P

I'll bring the beer!
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