Author Topic: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?  (Read 4321 times)

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Offline oratio

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Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« on: December 08, 2012, 05:54:09 AM »
Hi,

I know this must have been answered many times over. I did search, but maybe I formulated the search badly..

I am a newbie on this. I live in Sweden and pizzas here are very thin crusted and very different from what I see being made in the New York as well as anywhere in Italy. My impression of New York style pizza is that it is basically a bigger Neapolitan style pizza, maybe with a slightly harder crust making it more slice-friendly?

What would you say are the differences between New York style and vera Neapolitan pizza?


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2012, 06:34:03 AM »
The difference can range from very small (only bake time), to very large (sugar in the dough, cold fermentation, heavy toppings, etc.). Neapolitan pizza is easy to define, because the definition is so narrow. A Neapolitan pizza is: made with unbleached/non-bromated flour, salt, yeast and water; fermented at room temperature; topped with only raw tomatoes, fresh mozzarella, and sparsely much else; cooked at 800 degrees for around 60 seconds; soft and light, without any chewiness or heaviness.

A New York pizza could be: dough that contains sugar and oil; high protein flour that is bleached and bromated; fermented at a low temperature; stretched to as big as 18 inches; heavily topped with cooked sauce and dry mozzarella; baked from 3 to 10 minutes; very chewy.

Or, New York pizza could be all of the Neapolitan items stated above, but just cooked at 600 for 4-5 minutes. The only major factor in this scenario would be flour type, NP being a 00 variety and NY being high gluten.

John

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2012, 09:10:15 AM »
oratio,

If you go back into the history of the NY style, you will see that the basic NY style pizza was made using flour, water, fresh yeast and salt. The flour originally was all-purpose flour but over time pizza operators used bread flour and high-gluten flour as they became available and popular for that style. The bread flour and high-gluten flour were commonly bleached and bromated. Sometimes they were just called "pizza flour". There was no sugar or oil used in the dough, and the dough was mixed by hand (before Mr. Hobart invented the commercial mixer) and fermented at room temperature (commercial refrigeration had not yet been invented). Dry yeast products such as ADY and IDY had not yet been invented (IDY was invented just after World War II and IDY was invented in the 1970s), so the yeast used was fresh yeast. The pizzas were typically baked in high-temperature coal fired ovens. When deck ovens were invented and became commercially available, oil and sugar started to be added to the dough. When refrigeration became commercially viable for cold fermenting dough, it allowed pizza operators to make dough and be able to use it for more than one day. The end product pizzas were typically quite large, with 18" being typical. In some cases, they were even larger than 18".

Today, if you were to investigate what NY style pizza operators are doing, you would find that all of the above measures are being used by someone somewhere. However, over time, there has been a movement toward the use of high-gluten flours and the regular use of oil in the dough. The flour is most likely to be bleached and bromated. Sugar might also be added to the dough, especially if the dough is to be cold fermented for more than a few days. And dry yeast products are regularly used. Most of the NY style pizzas today are likely to be baked in deck ovens, although there are still coal-fired ovens being used to make the earlier NY style pizza, often called the "elite" style to differentiate those pizzas from the "NY street" style. The elite style pizzas come in the larger sizes although the NY street style pizzas can come in a wide range of sizes, including 12", 14", 16" and 18", with the most common size still being the 18" size. There is also a wide range of toppings for the NY street style and bake times also tend to be on the high side, much longer than would be used to make the Neapolitan style, which are typically baked in very high temperature wood-fired ovens with bake times of under about 2 minutes and often under a minute. Also, the Neapolitan style pizzas rarely get above 10"-12" in size. And, as John noted, the flour used for that style is usually an unbromated, unbleached, unmalted flour such as the 00 flour, there is no sugar or oil used in the dough, and the pizzas are sparsely topped. The sauce is typically made from Italian San Marzano tomatoes and the cheese can be fresh mozzarella cheese of buffalo mozzarella cheese. The NY style pizzas typically use canned domestic tomato products and processed mozzarella cheeses.

Peter


Offline oratio

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »
Thank you guys!

I see. Pretty big difference then, for the most. I am trying to figure out what type of pizza style I should pursue. Neapolitans seem genuinely amazing, but NY pizza is iconic as well.

One concern is that I want to be able to serve pizza by slice as well as a whole pie. Would that be doable with the crust of a Neapolitan pizza or is it too soft? Is anyone making 18" Neapolitan pizzas or are the characteristics of the dough only suited for a smaller size?

Michael

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012, 04:27:09 PM »
Thank you guys!

I see. Pretty big difference then, for the most. I am trying to figure out what type of pizza style I should pursue. Neapolitans seem genuinely amazing, but NY pizza is iconic as well.

One concern is that I want to be able to serve pizza by slice as well as a whole pie. Would that be doable with the crust of a Neapolitan pizza or is it too soft? Is anyone making 18" Neapolitan pizzas or are the characteristics of the dough only suited for a smaller size?

Michael

Michael - Neapolitan pizza is generally meant to be eaten with a knife and fork, or folded whole, but really meant to be 12-13 inches and for one person to eat. I would say that if you want to do slices, NY Style is a better route all around.

John

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2012, 04:52:35 PM »
Is anyone making 18" Neapolitan pizzas or are the characteristics of the dough only suited for a smaller size?


Michael,

I have read of a few cases where people have tried making an 18" Neapolitan style pizza. See, for example, http://www.menuism.com/restaurants/pomodoro-riverside-250058/images/212754#slide-9 and  http://chicago.grubstreet.com/2012/11/stout_barrel_house_partners_pl.html. If you do a Google search, you may find a few others doing likewise. However, I have no idea as to the merits of Neapolitan pizzas that size.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 07:12:59 PM »
NP pie is a bit more of a "personal" experience...that is why they are typically made in an "individual" size where one chooses a very minimal amount of "toppings" and I just don't see it as a very good candidate for "slice" reheating.
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 04:14:28 PM »
3 to 5 minutes is the difference.

Offline oratio

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 08:05:00 AM »
Thanks again, and sorry for the late reply. It's pretty clear that what I want is the NY style characteristics. In my opinion a pizza is supposed to be a bread, and sliced, not a pancake :P

What I love about the NP is it's amazingly appetizing, organic look of a pizza with personality showing through that bubbly, charred leopard patterned fluffiness of perfect imperfection, just oozing of self esteem. I wonder how well that can be translated into high gluten "NY". Pretty well, I suspect  ;)

- Mike

Offline Al Dente

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Re: Diffference New York style and Neapolitan?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 07:31:33 PM »
Growing up here in Brooklyn, NY, everyone here refers to pizza's as usually "round" or "square", the round pie being the "Napoletana",(from Naples) the square being a "Sicilian." (Sicily) Not sure if this is what you may be referring to at all, just chiming in!