Author Topic: Need expert help  (Read 12965 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Need expert help
« on: December 09, 2012, 02:45:45 PM »
Hi Folks, can you please look over my dough formula and maybe tell me what's wrong with it? I'm happy with the dough its self i.e. taste crumb etc. but It doesn't gets any char on the bottom. I have a fan oven and conventional one and tried every method I could think of but with no luck. I use this stone http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pizza-Baking-Stone-inches-delivery/dp/B0039S44TI/ref=sr_1_6?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1355081959&sr=1-6 and preheat for an hour. I've also tried heating it beneath the grill/broiler and in all cases I get it up to approx 500f. So I'm guessing it's the formula, maybe not  :-[ here it is
Flour 195g
IDY1.4g
Salt 1g
sugar or honey 4g
Water 117g
Oil 2g
Thanks in advance.
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.


Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3047
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2012, 09:19:03 PM »
The thing(s) that are missing from your request are the following, which matter alot.
1) proof time
2)proof temp
3)proof method ball/bulk
4)kneading method
5)oven cook place top/bottom
6)gas or electric oven?

This will help someone (not me) help you. lol.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline widespreadpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1245
  • Location: NH
    • my beer store opening in june 2011
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2012, 09:48:53 PM »
also the brand of flour....  malted or not matters

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2012, 07:07:08 AM »
Oooops  :-[
1. Proof in fridge for 2 days approx or warm room for the same.
2. proof temp??????????????? :-[
3. proof method? ball in oiled bowl.
4. Knead with dough hook for 10 min
5. tried top middle and bottom racks in both fan and conventional oven
6.electric
and this is the flour http://www.odlums.ie/index.php?page=strong-flour
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3047
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2012, 07:28:57 AM »
1. Proof in fridge for 2 days approx or warm room for the same.
  That is a big difference in proofing methods.

If you do the fridge proof, how long do you let the dough warm before you bake it?
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »
1. Proof in fridge for 2 days approx or warm room for the same.
  That is a big difference in proofing methods.

If you do the fridge proof, how long do you let the dough warm before you bake it?
Remember one thing jet_deck, I'm a novice and will try any method once ;D
I've tried the fridge way and let the dough come to room temp for an hour or so before using.
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2012, 11:40:44 AM »
Pizzaboyo,
Looking at the link you gave you have a 1in. thick firebrick stone. I don't think 1hr preheat at 500degress is capable of giving you any char on the bottom.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3047
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2012, 12:29:46 PM »
Remember one thing jet_deck, I'm a novice and will try any method once ;D
I've tried the fridge way and let the dough come to room temp for an hour or so before using.

Yep, I am up to "experienced" novice level myself.  I don't think it has anything to do with browning issues, but you might consider leaving it out of the fridge for 2 or 3 hours.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2012, 12:49:30 PM »
Pizzaboyo,
Looking at the link you gave you have a 1in. thick firebrick stone. I don't think 1hr preheat at 500degress is capable of giving you any char on the bottom.
Do you mean I wasted 50 on a brick???  ::) or it needs longer heating??
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.


Offline mkevenson

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2719
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
  • Roos! Protector of Fowl
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 01:02:06 PM »
Pizzaboyo, The Amazon stone description says to pre heat 482 F. - 572 F. or 250C-300C.
Your oven I assume has a max dial setting of 500 F. Have you checked either the oven temp after an hour or the stone temp perhaps with an IR temp gauge. I wonder how hot the stone is really getting? When you turn on your broiler after max temp is achieved does the broiler go on? Some will not.
There may be work arounds to get your oven hotter but would be helpful to know the temps 1st.
That's a mighty thick pizza stone!!!!

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 01:09:55 PM »
the oven dial reaches 255c so I just crank it up, I THINK the grill goes off when the door closes and I'm expecting an ir thermometer near the end of the week so I can check the stone then. Am I the same as my stone??? thick ;D
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3047
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 01:25:05 PM »
Do you mean I wasted 50 on a brick???  ::) or it needs longer heating??

I suspect longer heating, but you will know for shure when the IR gun arrives.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 01:52:18 PM »
I suspect longer heating, but you will know for shure when the IR gun arrives.
I'll be divorced, an electric oven on the go for three hours for one pizza  ::) BUT it's MY pizza pet  :'(
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline weemis

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 598
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Columbus, OH
    • My Pizza Web Blog
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 02:02:38 PM »
I'll be divorced, an electric oven on the go for three hours for one pizza  ::) BUT it's MY pizza pet  :'(

Well, time to start making 4 pizzas! the good thing about it... they freeze well.
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 02:05:33 PM »
Wouldn't that take longer in the oven?? hence more electricity? hence earlier divorce  ;)
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline mkevenson

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2719
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
  • Roos! Protector of Fowl
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 02:10:46 PM »
I'll be divorced, an electric oven on the go for three hours for one pizza  ::) BUT it's MY pizza pet  :'(

IF? your electric oven either won't heat your stone sufficiently or it takes too long (expensive) and IF you can subject your stone to direct flame, you can consider a 60K BTU  propane burner . Many ways to accomplish this if necessary.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 02:27:24 PM »
Ooooh, I like that idea mark, where do I find such a burner?? and how would I use it?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 02:33:39 PM by Pizzaboyo »
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.


Offline weemis

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 598
  • Age: 35
  • Location: Columbus, OH
    • My Pizza Web Blog
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 02:42:36 PM »
Wouldn't that take longer in the oven?? hence more electricity? hence earlier divorce  ;)

your preheat time is due to the amount of thermal mass needed to heat up. once it's hot, it stays that way while cooking. you'd only need to preheat the stone once for 4 pizzas, as opposed to 4 individual preheat/cooking sessions. I have a wood fired oven that takes a few hours to heat up, and usually cook a minimum of 12 pizzas each time it's used. my freezer is full of awesome!
Nick Gore - just a dough eyed wanderer

Offline mkevenson

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2719
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
  • Roos! Protector of Fowl
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 02:43:42 PM »
Ooooh, I like that idea mark, where do I find such a burner?? and how would I use it?

I have a 2 burner from this manufacturer.

http://www.campchef.com/gas-stoves.html

You can see the single burner also on the site. There are a few folks here who use a Weber Kettle as the oven and cut a hole in the bottom to allow the heat from the burner to go up. I personally use  2Stone oven but that may be a bit pricey. You might be able to find an outdoor BBQ grill with high BTU burners and place your stone on the grill. Some stones don't like direct flame so then you have to have an intermediary steel plate.
Camp Chef will send to your home. Shipping to Europe may be high tho.

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 03:05:17 PM »
Cheers for all the advice folks but It's looking like I have to stick to the old domestic oven for a while.I'd build a WFO but space is scarce and it's always raining here anyway so that kills off the grill idea too  :angel: (that's why we have the green green grass)
Good news is. . . . my recipe must be OK
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 03:14:02 PM by Pizzaboyo »
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2012, 05:23:53 PM »
Find ceramic tiles (any will do) and build a ceiling on the shelf directly above the area where the convection fan is.  The goal is to build a ceiling that completely (relatively air tight) isolates the bottom of the oven from the top where the thermostat resides- use foil to fill any gaps left by the tiles.  By blocking the thermostat, you can drive up the temp in the bottom area quite a bit further than 500F. Make sure you use this with the IR thermometer you're getting, and don't leave it unattended. Try placing your bottom stone on different shelves to see which gives you the fastest browning using the convection feature.

Also, check the ingredients of your flour for either 'malted barley' or 'enzymes.' If it contains neither, you need to drop your IDY (perhaps to .4%) and extend your fermentation longer- 2 to 3 days.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2012, 05:29:47 PM by scott123 »

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2012, 04:00:00 AM »
Cheers for that Scott123,Can I take it then that the fan oven would be the better option?? I have a pan/tray that came with the oven that fits tightly to the sides and back so I'll try that upside down maybe (to create a mini dome effect) Roll on Friday night  :chef:
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2012, 04:45:06 AM »
Absolutely, you want the fan running for the entire bake.

Tiles are a bit better because it takes time for the heat to flow through them.  The heat might flow through the pan to the top of the oven a bit too quickly. You can try it.  Make sure, like I said, that it's air tight. A photo of the setup wouldn't hurt- just to make sure the ceiling is above the fan, but below the thermostat (usually a metal rod in a clip).

Offline Pizzaboyo

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Ireland
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2012, 10:37:45 AM »
IR thermometer arrived and the stone with dome effect tray = 540f
A quickly made dough gave some light browning on the base, mostly where bubbles had formed.
Any ideas???
An Irishman is never drunk as long as he can hold onto one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth.

Offline mkevenson

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2719
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
  • Roos! Protector of Fowl
Re: Need expert help
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2012, 03:11:55 PM »
IR thermometer arrived and the stone with dome effect tray = 540f
A quickly made dough gave some light browning on the base, mostly where bubbles had formed.
Any ideas???

Did you happen to take pics of the top? Just wondering if the top and bottom are cooking =.
How long was the bake? Is this your normal bake time?

Mark
"Gettin' better all the time" Beatles