Author Topic: Forno bravo napolino  (Read 7097 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 08:53:26 PM »
We hear  numbers and percentages about the fuel savings of this type of vent but compared to what?An open fire.Where does this data come from.I can only assume they are comparing the current recirculating vent to the same basic oven with the dome insulated but with the vent placed at the center of the dome.

Can you point me to the website of any of the Neapolitan builders who makes such a claim? Not only do I not remember ever seeing this, I canít remember ever reading any specific claims about why the traditional Neapolitan oven vent is built the way it is.

The heat from the dome is said to heat the air in the vent and thus increase draw.  I personally feel this is all smoke, mirrors, and a result of results being credited to the wrong source, but I could talk about that for a long time(and have). 

Jeff, when you say ďis said to heat the air..,Ē youíre not talking about Neapolitan oven builders, right? Rather just random folks speculating? If not, Iíd ask you the same question; which Neapolitan oven builder has put that specific claim in writing?

Personally, I donít believe either is the reason. If I had to guess the reason, Iíd side with the idea of heating the dome above the door from the top and bottom. Wouldnít that inherently be the coolest part of the dome?

 
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Obviously those beautiful ovens made in Italy produce lots of great pizza day in and day out year after year but I think I see a few areas for improvement.Does anyone know when or how long ago the recirculated vent became adopted or accepted as "a better mouse trap".
 

Such as? And what would the changes improve specifically?

And I agree with him on this point.  That is the major design flaw to a traditional Neapolitan oven, although they claim it is a feature against all scientific logic.

So why is it that no one has built an oven with a straight stack that bakes a better Neapolitan pizza than a traditional oven?

And, I'll ask you the same question too - can you show me where any of the Neapolitan oven builders make any specific claims about the function of the vent? And If you can't point to a specific claim to debunk, and if you can't point to an example of a better oven with a different chimney system, how can you say it's "against all scientific logic?"
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 09:49:54 PM »
Empirical data, much less scientific logic, says that a straight flue will always outperform one with bends.  That is not even a debatable question.  That leaves the concept of using the flue heat to assist in heating the dome, which I have no data on other than basic thermodynamic principles which argue against.  If the flue is insulated from the oven and still bends, what is the utility, other than moving the flue from it's position on the front of the oven?

The only realistic utility of the traditional Neapolitan entry design is the access it gives to the oven.  The same can be achieved with a vertical stack.  Let's not get started on the efficiency of a cast iron front for the oven......

Online shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 10:09:37 PM »
Jeff, when you say ďis said to heat the air..,Ē youíre not talking about Neapolitan oven builders, right? Rather just random folks speculating? If not, Iíd ask you the same question; which Neapolitan oven builder has put that specific claim in writing?

Personally, I donít believe either is the reason. If I had to guess the reason, Iíd side with the idea of heating the dome above the door from the top and bottom. Wouldnít that inherently be the coolest part of the dome?

No, I am speaking based on one Neapolitan Builder, and one Neapolitan Consultant and oven rep.  I originally assumed the same as you do,  the neapolitan vent used the heat in the flue gases to heat the coolest part of the oven.  The first time I heard otherwise was in a thread here when Marco made the claim that it wasn't the flue heating the oven, but the opposite the oven heating the flue.  The second time I heard the same claim was from Steffano Ferrara in an italian language article that I had a link to on my old computer but have not been able to find in a while.

My personal current belief, as I've stated elsewhere, is that the hot air in the vent serves as a suido insulator in a poorly insulated oven. 
-Jeff

Online shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 10:32:02 PM »
This is not the quote from Marco I mentioned, but he says the same thing none the less in post#1 of this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.msg9910.html#msg9910

-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 10:40:14 PM »
This is not the quote from Marco I mentioned, but he says the same thing none the less in post#1 of this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.msg9910.html#msg9910

So it is all based on what Marco believes? Are we going to apply that same standard to everything else as well?  ;)

I want to see a manufacturer who puts his name behind the claim, or like a pizza without a picture, it never happened.
Pizza is not bread.

Online shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 10:51:41 PM »
When I have a chance I will try and find that article with Steffano Ferrara, but have tried without luck in the past.  It is a pretty distinct article because there are pictures of him being interviewed in it, which I have never seen anywhere else. 

Outside of Marco, and SF I have not found much along the line of information, interviews or dialogue on Neapolitan ovens.
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 11:01:40 PM »
Empirical data, much less scientific logic, says that a straight flue will always outperform one with bends.  That is not even a debatable question. 

Outperform in what way? Iím not sure that youíve looked close enough at the architecture. The cross-section of the flue from the vent opening to the bottom of the flue pipe (the space where the gas travels through the dome) is 33% larger than the cross-section of my chimney. Since there is no constriction until the gas reaches the bottom of the chimney pipe, for all intents and purposes, the draw is straight up. When have you seen a Neapolitan oven with any black soot on the face for that matter?

Quote
That leaves the concept of using the flue heat to assist in heating the dome, which I have no data on other than basic thermodynamic principles which argue against.  If the flue is insulated from the oven and still bends, what is the utility, other than moving the flue from it's position on the front of the oven?

Iím not sure I understand what you are saying. What insulation is between the bricks of the dome and the flue gas?

Quote
The only realistic utility of the traditional Neapolitan entry design is the access it gives to the oven.  The same can be achieved with a vertical stack.  Let's not get started on the efficiency of a cast iron front for the oven......

I think itís steel not cast iron. Have you reached in and felt around behind it? Itís not bare metal The amount of heat lost through the faÁade is insignificant.

You still havenít answered the question why, if the design is so flawed, hasnít anyone actually built a better performing oven?

The only NP oven I can think of with a straight up vent is the Cirigliano Forni. I donít see where they have made any claims about the chimney system. Rather from pictures Iíve seen, it appears to be about facilitating assembly not oven function Ė and you want to talk about a heat sink up frontÖ
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 11:36:19 PM »
The design is not flawed, the execution is the issue.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 03:44:59 PM »
Paragraphs are your friend.
Your right.  As I said in my introduction I am not at all proficient at punctuation or using a keyboard.  I do try to learn from my mistakes, so thanks for the heads up.
And not one but 2 spaces.....
Sorry, see above

Bill

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 04:23:25 PM »
It is just hard to read.  Even if not puncuated correctly, a couple spaces after each sentence and a line break after 2 or three related sentences is fine.


Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 05:03:25 PM »
I completely understand your point.  Rereading my own posts is like listening to someone in the middle of a manic episode talk for ten minutes without taking a breath.                                   

Could you tell me how to quote a specific sentence of a post without quoting the whole post so that I can reply point by point.It's so much easier to follow.

Thanks

Bill

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 05:13:11 PM »
I do it the hard way:  Highlight the area to quote, then hit CNTL C, move the cursor to where you want the quote and hit CNTL V.  Don't forget to put it in quote marks.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2013, 05:21:09 PM »
Very Interesting discussion.

Could you tell me how to quote a specific sentence of a post without quoting the whole post so that I can reply point by point.It's so much easier to follow.

I copy and paste it in the reply box.  Highlighted and then Bold it by hitting the "B" in the left hand corner. 

Offline dhorst

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2013, 05:35:04 PM »
I do it the hard way:  Highlight the area to quote, then hit CNTL C, move the cursor to where you want the quote and hit CNTL V.  Don't forget to put it in quote marks.
That's the way I do it, too.  I'm not very sophisticated and I'm still getting used to things around here.

I will say in regards to writing in general, two spaces between sentences is correct.  Also, if you read it aloud, you will generally know when you need a comma or need to start another sentence.  If you're out of breath, then you definitely need to start another sentence and or paragraph--unless you're a beat poet like Ginsberg. 

Paragraphs are very helpful to organize thoughts and give the reader a moment to think about what you've just said.  Also, for someone like me, it takes a bit to absorb some of this mind blowing technological information that is put out there.  Yes, I can do the math, but I need a moment here and there so my head doesn't explode. 

Sorry that I went off topic.  I'm very interested in the actual information regarding ovens, construction, indoors or outdoors, etc.  But gee, sometimes you guys make my head spin.  Seriously, I appreciate all of the input; if I end up building my own WFO, this site is priceless as far as what I need to take into consideration.  Now about that Black Stone... ;)

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2013, 06:46:24 PM »
Wow.....This forum rocks.....So many immediate replies to help a neanderthal man.

Let's see if I can do this

 "Can you point me to the website of any of the Neapolitan builders who makes such a claim? Not only do I not remember ever seeing this, I canít remember ever reading any specific claims about why the traditional Neapolitan oven vent is built the way it is."


Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction but give no comparative data. This is my point exactly.

"Such as? And what would the changes improve specifically?"


Improve is a subjective term but, in term of efficiency of the mobile units I would say a few more inches of insulation around the soldier course may make them save fuel and radiate less heat.Would this make a better pizza....I'm sure not, but it would make it easier to be that guy working the oven everyday.
As for as functionality,  and any ovens ability to produce great Neapolitan pizza at high throughput the best improvement I could thank to make would be putting Mario of Canne Rosso in front of it.


Bill

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2013, 07:02:08 PM »
I can extract the quotes it seems, but the only way I can get the red vertical bar with the posters info and the highlighted quote is to

Click reply to open reply box

Find post that contains the line of text I want

Click insert quote

Go back to reply box and erase with my backspace button everything I don't want.

Is there any easier way.....Help

Bill
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:47:08 PM by txtanner »

Offline Ronzo

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2013, 07:37:11 PM »
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
http://newtexianbrew.com - http://ronlennex.com/ - http://pinterest.com/NewTexianBrew

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2013, 07:58:30 PM »
My wife says space before the period is her friend.

Bill

Offline thezaman

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2013, 08:03:34 AM »
 i can report on the 70 i have had one for three years. i love this little oven!! the only thing you are getting with the tiled oven is its Neapolitan oven look, it does look beautiful! .i do not think it will cook any different. if you are handy buy the kit as was mentioned earlier. you could do the same thing as they did and save a lot of money. the vent would be a challenge, and i doubt you will see any difference in cooking.
 the pizza coming from that oven is no different than my bigger forno bravo that i use for catering. it is a challenge not burning the leading edge in that it sits 4 inches from the flame,but it makes you a better cook for it. two pies first from the 70 the second from casa 100 the only difference is how i prepared my cheese the first was torn from a ball the second was cut and sliced.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2013, 10:25:54 AM »
Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction but give no comparative data. This is my point exactly.

Bill,

Can you point me to some examples?
Pizza is not bread.