Author Topic: Forno bravo napolino  (Read 7239 times)

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Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2013, 12:55:09 PM »
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So why is it that no one has built an oven with a straight stack that bakes a better Neapolitan pizza than a traditional oven?

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My guess would be because no one would buy it.It would cease to look like a traditional Neapolitan oven,there's an old saying in the restaurant biz"They eat the steak but it's the sizzle they buy".

Outperform in what way? I’m not sure that you’ve looked close enough at the architecture. The cross-section of the flue from the vent opening to the bottom of the flue pipe (the space where the gas travels through the dome) is 33% larger than the cross-section of my chimney. Since there is no constriction until the gas reaches the bottom of the chimney pipe, for all intents and purposes, the draw is straight up. When have you seen a Neapolitan oven with any black soot on the face for that matter?

 I agree with you here to an extent about this but here lies the argument some are making" why not insulate the dome to gain effeciancy and build the vent over it"

I’m not sure I understand what you are saying. What insulation is between the bricks of the dome and the flue gas?

I believe he may be suggesting It should be

I think it’s steel not cast iron. Have you reached in and felt around behind it? It’s not bare metal The amount of heat lost through the façade is insignificant.

Some use steel and some use cast iron. Sf uses cast iron,his name is cast into it. I'm sure you used the word facade for lack of a better word but to clarify this is not a facade(purely for looks and has no structural purpose). In my opinion this piece of plate and the steel pieces attached to it are genius and what separate this design from pomeii style ovens.

This plate and its arch serve multiple purposes.

It allows much greater access to the cooking floor than the deep brick arch and throat of the pompeii due to the greater angles you can turn your peel.

More importantly it completes the solder course and serves as the brick arch to resist the down and outward forces of the dome.  This is done by the all the bricks which make up the arch and entry in the pompeii.  You could argue the efficiency goes to the Neapolitan here because those bricks are sucking up heat and losing it up the flue.

IT's the structure that supports the vent.....to this plate angle iron is attached and to this a curved piece of angle( the piece that's visible on a finished oven}  that serves as a lintel to carry the bricks that make up the vent entry.

This plate can be insulated and from the pictures I've seen they do some. Not much but some.But then again wouldn't any heat rising up from this plate  help to create draw in the vent?  I have seen black smoke on the steel but never on the outside of the oven.
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You still haven’t answered the question why, if the design is so flawed, hasn’t anyone actually built a better performing oven?


I don't thank anyone has,but I plan to and hopefully the world will beat a path to my door.I doubt the world would though because I only have two vowels in my last name. ;D  As I stated the ovens work great so any improvements would be incremental at best.I'm thinking evolutionary as apposed to revolutionary with absolutely no change in aesthetics.  I'm actually leaning toward a trailer unit. That maybe an untapped market.

Great looking pizza Zaman,just goes to show the Pizzaiolo is the greatest improvement you can make to any oven. I've seen lotsa pictures of your pizzas too Txcraigs and you got it goinng on bigtime as well.  That Acunto rocks.


Bill
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 01:11:18 PM by txtanner »


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2013, 01:16:36 PM »
I'm sure you used the word facade for lack of a better word but to clarify this is not a facade(purely for looks and has no structural purpose). In my opinion this piece of plate and the steel pieces attached to it are genius and what separate this design from pomeii style ovens.

This plate and its arch serve multiple purposes.

It allows much greater access to the cooking floor than the deep brick arch and throat of the pompeii due to the greater angles you can turn your peel.

More importantly it completes the solder course and serves as the brick arch to resist the down and outward forces of the dome.  This is done by the all the bricks which make up the arch and entry in the pompeii.  You could argue the efficiency goes to the Neapolitan here because those bricks are sucking up heat and losing it up the flue.

IT's the structure that supports the vent.....to this plate angle iron is attached and to this a curved piece of angle( the piece that's visible on a finished oven}  that serves as a lintel to carry the bricks that make up the vent entry.

This plate can be insulated and from the pictures I've seen they do some. Not much but some.But then again wouldn't any heat rising up from this plate  help to create draw in the vent?  I have seen black smoke on the steel but never on the outside of the oven.

It may accomplish some or all of these things to varying degrees, but you left out THE reason it is there. The biscotto floor tiles are wider than the mouth of the oven, so you need to be able to remove the plate to allow them to pass through when replacing the floor.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2013, 02:02:33 PM »
I didn't know that it WAS removable.  Cool!

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2013, 02:36:05 PM »
Bill,

Can you point me to some examples?

Try this http://www.sfallestimenti.it/english/about_us.php

Look down the page for the article in English.His oven is compared to an industrial with no data.It's just better.

It may accomplish some or all of these things to varying degrees, but you left out THE reason it is there. The biscotto floor tiles are wider than the mouth of the oven, so you need to be able to remove the plate to allow them to pass through when replacing the floor.

I left that fact out because I didn't want it to sound like toooo genius.Check out these pictures.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.40.html   There ain't no way those tiles are coming out of this oven without a big freakin hammer or a grinder with a diamond wheel.

That may be the case with your oven but I don't think they all use the same size tiles, a 24x12 would fit through the door. And I would consider it a feature as opposed to THE reason the oven uses this plate.That's a convenience when replacing tiles.  Kinda like saying the reason a car has front fenders is so you have a place to put  beer and wrenches while you work on the motor.Works great for that but it ties a lot of other important stuff together too

Bill


« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 02:56:38 PM by txtanner »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2013, 04:45:14 PM »
Try this http://www.sfallestimenti.it/english/about_us.php

Look down the page for the article in English.His oven is compared to an industrial with no data.It's just better.

I was hoping that since you wrote Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction” you could point me to even one quote directly on one of their websites where they promote their product to the industry – not a clipping from some random Italian food magazine. You are right about the point made being vague though…

Quote
I left that fact out because I didn't want it to sound like toooo genius.Check out these pictures.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.40.html   There ain't no way those tiles are coming out of this oven without a big freakin hammer or a grinder with a diamond wheel.

That may be the case with your oven but I don't think they all use the same size tiles, a 24x12 would fit through the door. And I would consider it a feature as opposed to THE reason the oven uses this plate.That's a convenience when replacing tiles.  Kinda like saying the reason a car has front fenders is so you have a place to put  beer and wrenches while you work on the motor.Works great for that but it ties a lot of other important stuff together too

Bill

I can assure you it is THE reason. When was the last time you saw a Neapolitan oven with more than four tiles? Why would different 120cm ovens use different size tiles? Last time I checked, there was only one way to divide a circle into 4 equal pieces. All the things you noted could easily be accomplished by other means. Replacing the floor tiles? Not so much. In no case that I know of does the metal plate support the vent.

Here is a picture of the floor being replaced in a MV (and the oven right after it was delivered new for reference).

Pizza is not bread.

Offline banjobutt

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2013, 05:48:30 PM »
Regarding your original post about the Forno Bravo Napolino 70.
 I have the Forno Bravo Primavera 70 which I think is basically the same oven just with different packaging.  I have had mine for about a year and I really enjoy it. Before that I used a ceramic grill (Primo XL) to approximate Neo pizza. The smaller oven was a compromise but I really wanted a prebuilt oven and I wanted it located on my deck so it would be very close to my patio slider enabling me to use it year around. I do have a large patio where I could have put a larger oven but it would not be as convenient going from the food prep area (kitchen) to the oven.  Advantages of the P70 are quick heat up times, lower wood consumption, only steps from my kitchen. Some disadvantages is it is small, a one pizza at a time oven and it takes more skill to use the smaller oven. I have used a friend’s 36” oven and it is much more forgiving with the extra space. Once the oven is up to temp I will remove some of the coals just to maximize hearth space. Also the smaller oven cools quicker which can be good for bread baking but loses lot of heat over night (less mass). I get very good results but again requires a bit more skill for heat management. It snows where I live and I do keep the oven covered when not in use.
So the P70 was a compromise but I would make the same decision if given a do over. It worked for me.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2013, 05:58:43 PM »
I have to correct myself on one thing I wrote - here is a NP oven with more than 4 floor tiles - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26441.msg269614.html#msg269614 - and it appears that this configuration allows them to have a much smaller opening in the soldier course. Notwithstanding - four tiles certainly appears to be the standard. I would suspect because it has less seams.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2013, 06:23:54 PM »
I agree that the front is removable and that feature is used when they replace the floors, I simply don't think it is that elegant of a solution.  They still put brick and mortar in place above the cast iron arch insert which needs to be removed.  It also leaves a large portion of the dome unsupported which is not only a risk to the oven, but a risk to the guy sticking his head in there.  Don't get me wrong, it works and has worked for much longer then I have been on this earth, but it is not elegant.  My ideal is a 5 piece floor that can fit through the door, but we can't even get low conductivity brick in tile sizes here let alone the shapes we want, so you can throw ideal out the window.
-Jeff

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »
I was hoping that since you wrote Many if not all make some vague statement about the fuel efficiency of their designs and construction” you could point me to even one quote directly on one of their websites where they promote their product to the industry – not a clipping from some random Italian food magazine. You are right about the point made being vague though…

.nce).



That was a random article but it was on the SF website.But again all oven makers(Americans too) make these vague claims.



I can assure you it is THE reason. When was the last time you saw a Neapolitan oven with more than four tiles? Why would different 120cm ovens use different size tiles? Last time I checked, there was only one way to divide a circle into 4 equal pieces. All the things you noted could easily be accomplished by other means. Replacing the floor tiles? Not so much. In no case that I know of does the metal plate support the vent.

Here is a picture of the floor being replaced in a MV (and the oven right after it was delivered new for reference).



The pictures don't lie...that guy has got his head in that oven don't he.That explains why those ovens have such a large plate on the front and the opening is so large.

But what about all that ruble on the floor?It might just be laying there from something else but it does bring up some questions.The plate on this design maybe just a facade but its because something else is serving the structural functions.Something has got to support the dome.  That maybe the ruble in the floor.  Looks like you gotta tear up some stuff to replace the floor.  Thanks for posting the picture and I stand corrected. Never say never.....or always. You just gave me a lot more research to do bro


Bill
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 10:52:46 PM by txtanner »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2013, 11:08:19 PM »
I think the rubble on the floor is the old oven floor. They break it up to get it out.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2013, 11:34:32 PM »
I agree but I thank it might be a stone arch as well. Something has to be support the dome over the opening if the steel arch wasn't. I'm off to check out their facebook pictures,

Bill

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=413626942060256&set=pb.100002388606457.-2207520000.1375846649.&type=3&theater

See how the steel arch is placed and then bricked up to so it completes the soldier course and supports the dome.As you can see it has to be put in place before the dome is begone.

I would imagine even if the arch could be slipped out,it would still be necessary to cut out the bricks behind the plate to replace the floor.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 11:54:51 PM by txtanner »

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2013, 12:47:04 AM »
Very Interesting discussion.

Could you tell me how to quote a specific sentence of a post without quoting the whole post so that I can reply point by point.It's so much easier to follow.

I copy and paste it in the reply box.  Highlighted and then Bold it by hitting the "B" in the left hand corner.
Chau you have to quote the person then just delete everything except what you want quoted.

If you want to do multiple quotes of the same person you would have to copy the entire quote(from the first "
Quote from: J" to the end "[/quote
" then keep copy and pasting each sentence you want to reference with those two at the start and end. That's how I do it at least; I'm not sure how Craig is doing it but it's probably the same way.

Offline txtanner

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Re: Forno bravo napolino
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2013, 03:20:39 PM »
Multiple Quotes is like,  shampoo, rinse and repeat then shampoo, rinse and repeat until your done. :-D

Bill


 

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