Ok, I’m going to take on a Me & Ed’s Clone

[Chicago Bob]

Have you decided what flour you are going to use Lydia? I'd like to play along on this one and need to get my ducks in a row. 

[Lydia]

Harvest King/ GM B4B

I can't imagine needing to change this for the M&E clone.

[Mad_Ernie]

Right now I'm trying to decide on method an technique. I don't have anything solid, but it looks like it's going in the kitchenaid.

For this type of dough, I think that is a safe bet. 

-ME

[Jet_deck]

Lydia will knock this one dead, I can already tell.

[DNA Dan]

Isn't that pizza crust yeast just the rapid rise yeast with a dough relaxer included in the package? I wonder if there is a difference from just using IDY with some PZ44 or something added?

I bought the 1 lb sack of Fleichmann's instant I identified in another thread regarding the shakey's bag. It works great so far and tastes better than SAF or Red Star in my opinion.

Regarding the layering of scraps in your description of the process, I could easily see the expansion rates varying by the age and hydration of the layers, thus encouraging separation upon heating. What I find more intriguing is the fact that you didn't observe any changes in thickness going on with the sheeter adjustments. I wonder if they just keep it dialed as the finished thickness, then just force it through and has more to do with the number of passes? I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

I did some more experiments last weekend comparing Monadako to AT. The only reason I mention it here is because I found the Mondako held the internal crumb structure after it cooled, whereas the AT did not. It sort of "deflated". So I think the suggestion of BFB or even APF is really suitable for this style. AT seems to need more heat than weaker flours and it does not perform as well in the conveyor. I actually got a crunchier product from the weaker flour. This is good news to regular folks who just have a regular home oven.

[Lydia]

Isn't that pizza crust yeast just the rapid rise yeast with a dough relaxer included in the package? I wonder if there is a difference from just using IDY with some PZ44 or something added?

My thoughts are inline with yours. The L-cysteine is the only thing common between them. The primary thing is the enzymes that are kicking the fermentation process into high gear. Pendleton Pizza Flour has some enzymes added to it. But in both cases we don't know which enzymes are being used.

Also in the Pizza Crust Yeast the acidic acid is ramping up the yeast activity to make a lighter flakier crust. So in that case, Fruit Fresh in the canning isle should work fine. So I was planning on working something out with the Pizza Flour, Fruit Fresh, then add my homemade "dead yeast" from ADY (for the monosterate) to replace the l-cysteine.

There are a couple of ways to kill the yeast but I think the spice grinder method is more reliable than killing it with high/low water temps.

So it "seems" to be doable, but I wont be ready for that until I've played with this Pizza Yeast for a while.

 

[Lydia]

Regarding the layering of scraps in your description of the process, I could easily see the expansion rates varying by the age and hydration of the layers, thus encouraging separation upon heating. What I find more intriguing is the fact that you didn't observe any changes in thickness going on with the sheeter adjustments. I wonder if they just keep it dialed as the finished thickness, then just force it through and has more to do with the number of passes? I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

Like I mentioned, the Manager was "quick". I agree that he "at least" needed to click it down once for the final long sheet. I believe their sheeter was an Annetts single pass.
It didn't sheet as well as the Sommerset or Acme versions I've seen as RT. It did remind me more of my pasta machine, just bigger and a bit more efficient. I never heard the motor strain, but the motor was quite, like at RT.

I played a bit with the pasta sheeter, with the motor attached, and had a similar experience.
 
What "appears" to be going on is that the primary folding and sheeting are comparable to the "kneading" phase in pasta making. So the dough is folded and sheeted to condition the under developed dough without focusing on creating length, and in this case, our beloved "layering".

So in pasta making this is done on the widest settings, on my machine this is #1 and 2.

If the dough is at a good hydration level and as long as I have the "motor" set on it's higher setting, I can run it through the pasta maker without changing the width. I just need to flatten the trifold a bit. But eventually it needs to be brought down to the next lowest setting (width) at least once during the" kneading/layering phase" to make a smooth sheet.
 

I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?

[Lydia]

Have you decided what flour you are going to use Lydia? I'd like to play along on this one and need to get my ducks in a row. 

I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.

[Chicago Bob]

I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.

Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's. Not trying to persuade your methods, Lydia, because I am very interested in seeing how you tackle this thing....but I just wanted to mention a technique that I have suggested(to muted ears I think) several times over the past year. Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob

[Lydia]

Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob

I use that technique for quite a few things, but "for now" I have the shortening on the low side. I gave it a try last night and am thinking that the FP would do a better job more quickly. The question is "do I really want to dirty 2 machines"?

There are also a few other methods that seem to be working, 'so far". The L-cysteine is really opening up a lot of options for dough handling. I'm trying to get through all these quickly so we can get this thing going.

Oh, and the camera I want is on sale. So, as long as they have it in, I should have a camera over the weekend so I can show you guys what's going on. Yay 

[Lydia]

Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's.
Bob

Lard is always welcome   

[Lydia]

Hey Dan?

Does Mondako also have the L-cysteine in it?

[DNA Dan]

This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?

So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 

[Pete-zza]

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta.

Dan,

That apparently is no longer the case. See Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671.

Peter

[Lydia]

So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 

Exactly what I needed to know. 

As far as I can recall, it was static the entire time.

It looked as though it didn't have as much compression as the RT doughs from the Acme and Sommerset. Which is why is reminded more of the pasta machine.

So when the fresh dough went through, it was comparable to the pasta machine on the widest setting. Not very compressed.
When the RT thick crust dough (non laminated dough) goes through the sheeter, they are much more dense and smooth. A lot more.

At M&E when the scraps went through, they were more like RT. But sometimes, the scraps don't form as well on the bottom crust.

So...like it has the springs but with less compression. 

So, even though ME dough appears wetter than RT, it "still" looks like there isn't as much compression going on.

Hoping I'm making some kind of sense here. I feel like it's hard to describe.

[Lydia]

Dan,

That apparently is no longer the case. See Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671.

Peter

Perfect! Thank you Peter. 

[Chicago Bob]

 I believe the "spring tension" on those are adjustable....right Dan?

[Lydia]

Here...I think this is our guy.... SDR 4


http://www.middleby.com/service_2000/technical_pubs/pdf/mm/dough_rollers/Sheeter%20SDR4.pdf

[Lydia]

So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.

[Chicago Bob]

So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.

It has two "stops" that you can set but the operator has to hit the "quick set handle" to jog between the two pre set thickness settings "stops"