Author Topic: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone  (Read 12015 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2012, 11:40:41 AM »
Isn't that pizza crust yeast just the rapid rise yeast with a dough relaxer included in the package? I wonder if there is a difference from just using IDY with some PZ44 or something added?

My thoughts are inline with yours. The L-cysteine is the only thing common between them. The primary thing is the enzymes that are kicking the fermentation process into high gear. Pendleton Pizza Flour has some enzymes added to it. But in both cases we don't know which enzymes are being used.

Also in the Pizza Crust Yeast the acidic acid is ramping up the yeast activity to make a lighter flakier crust. So in that case, Fruit Fresh in the canning isle should work fine. So I was planning on working something out with the Pizza Flour, Fruit Fresh, then add my homemade "dead yeast" from ADY (for the monosterate) to replace the l-cysteine.

There are a couple of ways to kill the yeast but I think the spice grinder method is more reliable than killing it with high/low water temps.

So it "seems" to be doable, but I wont be ready for that until I've played with this Pizza Yeast for a while.

 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2012, 02:25:38 PM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2012, 12:24:32 PM »

Regarding the layering of scraps in your description of the process, I could easily see the expansion rates varying by the age and hydration of the layers, thus encouraging separation upon heating. What I find more intriguing is the fact that you didn't observe any changes in thickness going on with the sheeter adjustments. I wonder if they just keep it dialed as the finished thickness, then just force it through and has more to do with the number of passes? I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.


Like I mentioned, the Manager was "quick". I agree that he "at least" needed to click it down once for the final long sheet. I believe their sheeter was an Annetts single pass.
It didn't sheet as well as the Sommerset or Acme versions I've seen as RT. It did remind me more of my pasta machine, just bigger and a bit more efficient. I never heard the motor strain, but the motor was quite, like at RT.

I played a bit with the pasta sheeter, with the motor attached, and had a similar experience.
 
What "appears" to be going on is that the primary folding and sheeting are comparable to the "kneading" phase in pasta making. So the dough is folded and sheeted to condition the under developed dough without focusing on creating length, and in this case, our beloved "layering".

So in pasta making this is done on the widest settings, on my machine this is #1 and 2.

If the dough is at a good hydration level and as long as I have the "motor" set on it's higher setting, I can run it through the pasta maker without changing the width. I just need to flatten the trifold a bit. But eventually it needs to be brought down to the next lowest setting (width) at least once during the" kneading/layering phase" to make a smooth sheet.
 

Quote
I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?



The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2012, 12:39:36 PM »
Have you decided what flour you are going to use Lydia? I'd like to play along on this one and need to get my ducks in a row.  ;)

I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2012, 01:13:35 PM »
I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.


Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's. Not trying to persuade your methods, Lydia, because I am very interested in seeing how you tackle this thing....but I just wanted to mention a technique that I have suggested(to muted ears I think) several times over the past year. Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2012, 02:13:21 PM »
Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob

I use that technique for quite a few things, but "for now" I have the shortening on the low side. I gave it a try last night and am thinking that the FP would do a better job more quickly. The question is "do I really want to dirty 2 machines"?

There are also a few other methods that seem to be working, 'so far". The L-cysteine is really opening up a lot of options for dough handling. I'm trying to get through all these quickly so we can get this thing going.

Oh, and the camera I want is on sale. So, as long as they have it in, I should have a camera over the weekend so I can show you guys what's going on. Yay  ;D





The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2012, 02:16:44 PM »
Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's.
Bob

Lard is always welcome   :chef:
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2012, 02:26:57 PM »
Hey Dan?

Does Mondako also have the L-cysteine in it?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2012, 03:20:30 PM »
This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?

So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2012, 03:33:20 PM »
My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta.

Dan,

That apparently is no longer the case. See Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671.

Peter


Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2012, 04:27:21 PM »
So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 

Exactly what I needed to know.  ;D

As far as I can recall, it was static the entire time.

It looked as though it didn't have as much compression as the RT doughs from the Acme and Sommerset. Which is why is reminded more of the pasta machine.

So when the fresh dough went through, it was comparable to the pasta machine on the widest setting. Not very compressed.
When the RT thick crust dough (non laminated dough) goes through the sheeter, they are much more dense and smooth. A lot more.

At M&E when the scraps went through, they were more like RT. But sometimes, the scraps don't form as well on the bottom crust.

So...like it has the springs but with less compression.  :-\

So, even though ME dough appears wetter than RT, it "still" looks like there isn't as much compression going on.

Hoping I'm making some kind of sense here. I feel like it's hard to describe.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2012, 04:28:31 PM »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2012, 04:53:53 PM »
 I believe the "spring tension" on those are adjustable....right Dan?
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2012, 05:14:30 PM »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2012, 06:07:11 PM »

So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2012, 06:14:24 PM »
So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.
It has two "stops" that you can set but the operator has to hit the "quick set handle" to jog between the two pre set thickness settings "stops"
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2012, 06:43:59 PM »
 Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
Yes, it wouldn't be hard to miss, most old pros get in a "groove" and can change settings with a forearm or brush of the chest in one sweeping motion while reloading the dough. I'll bet your mom will catch it next time Lydia.... ;D
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2012, 07:02:49 PM »
 :-D

well, I be watching for it next time, from the better angle  ;)
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 01:38:47 AM »
That's one "quick action" lever :-D. I'll have to open mine up to see if there is indeed a clutch in there. I have the synthetic rollers in mine, so perhaps some of these 40% hydration doughs are flexing the rollers a bit. It doesn't sound like it's working hard, it just remains somewhat thicker than the same setting using say a 50% hydration dough. However if I pass it a few more times, it will get down to where it should be. Interestingly enough in the instructions you posted, in the part that explains about setting the stops, they mention to not use the same dough piece over and over again to set the final thickness.

The deal with these two "stops" is their dough management is dialed in. They know exactly how hydrated the dough is going to be every time and how many passes they need to make at each setting. That's why it's difficult to keep the same technique in my experiments for different doughs. It may take more or less passes at a given setting to reach the thickness I am used to.

Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:40:29 AM by DNA Dan »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2012, 06:26:21 AM »
Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)

Dan,

In the flour world, this would be my nominee from Montana: http://www.wheatmontana.com/about.php  ;D.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
The reason I asked about the Mondako was for some reason I had in my head that it had the l-cystein. I went shopping yesterday at cash n carry and they had the Mondako "thin Crust" Pizza Mix. http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php This Mondako does have the l-cystein.



The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 01:48:36 PM »
Lydia,

Foremost Farms sells a product called PZ-44 that comprises whey and L-cysteine: http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/13): For an alternative to the above link that is no longer operative (since the PZ-44 product line was sold to another company), see http://web.archive.org/web/20060311221117/http://www.foremostfarms.com/products/ingredient/pdf/450PZ44.pdf.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:29:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2012, 03:11:21 PM »
I might be wrong about this....but, I assume that the two stops on the machine are meant more for use on one dough ball than a sheet of dough...this would make it a two pass machine when using dough balls.

John

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2013, 10:31:04 AM »
OK, I think Iím back to the official M&E trials now.

My local M&E has a shiny new sheeter. It still looks like the Annettís Sheeter mentioned earlier in this thread except that is stainless steel.
I havenít had another opportunity to see the thin crust sheeting to confirm any of the questions.


I stopped ordering pizza late on weekends due to poor crust quality (massive gum line) and got a new camera, so I was finally able to get some decent pics so you can see what Iím trying to accomplish and can use them as reference points.

Pic 1: crisp, nearly uniform golden bottom crust
Pic 2: Ultra thin golden layer, dry layer, doughy layer
Pic 3 close up of open crumb in crisp layer, ultra thin golden layer,
Pic 4: Bubble separation between crisp and doughy layers
Pic 5: soft but leathery separations in the doughy layer.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2013, 10:48:49 AM »
M&E crust breakdown from bottom up
cornmeal
ultra thin golden layer
dry layer
moist layer
ultra thin gum line/wet line.



Iíd like to point a few things out in the pics but first Iíd like to mention a few things for troubleshooting.

 
Quote
Doughy layer is uncooked (i.e., ungelatinzed) dough. As a result, it has the appear¨ance and texture of raw dough. Basically, doughy layer is raw dough that hasnít yet cooked. So the main cure is more heat or longer bake time. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

The difference between raw dough vs. doughy layer is that raw dough will have a wet stretchy quality to it whereas the doughy layer is about the same but isnít as severe. Itís caused from underproofing after balling or overweight dough balls. It will have moist dense undercooked dough that will have a somewhat spongy reaction when pressed between the fingers. To get an idea of the texture, think of mashed Wonderbread, kinda dense and doughy but not stretchy. Most people will find a ďtrueĒ doughy layer acceptable to eat.

- In the unique case of M&E pizzas, the doughy layer isnít really a ďdoughy layerĒ, it is fully cooked. It isnít spongy nor does it compress* (see below). It is just a softer layer with higher hydration. Same dough just softer because it isnít sheeted as much= less flour, less development of the dough. In pic 1 you can see that the dough is completely cooked through.


Quote
Gummy layerósometimes called gel layeróis cooked (coagu¨lated) dough that is lacking air cells. During baking the cellular structure collapsed and the air dissipated, resulting in a dense, grayish, translucent mass with a gummy (gelatinous) texture....... Gummy layer varies in thickness from very thin to almost the entire crust. Itís caused by excessive diastatic action in the dough. So the cure is to reduce diastatic activity. Unlike with doughy layer, extended baking will not eliminate gummy layer. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

To expand on Johnís definition there is another is another type of gummy layer.

One is caused by wet sauce coming into contact with unhydrated or underhydrated bench flour on the skins or by using lower hydration formulas because the flour is open to more hydration. In both cases it creates a true gummy layer ďtranslucent layerĒ except that it is typically clear to yellow in color. Whereas the gummy layer from over-fermented or dead dough is dense, rubbery has some level of a grayish hue.

Because of the bench flour, Sheeted doughs, no matter the hydration are especially prone to developing the clear/yellow gelatin layer caused by moisture migration and is exacerbated with the use of wet sauces. Although Iím finding it less of an issue with wet sauces that include oil and/or cornsyrup.

- The M&E pizzas develop a thin barely noteworthy gelatin layer due to moisture migration from a wet sauce. When looking for the gummy layer, do not use pic 2 or 3. There is an illusion in these. This pizza was cut immediately after removing from the oven before the crust had set and caused compression* over these lines. If you look at pic one, and 4 you will have a better representation of how thin and tender the gel line is. Itís texture is kind of a cross between a gum line and a thin doughy layer.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


 

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