Author Topic: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone  (Read 12705 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2013, 11:23:19 AM »
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2013, 11:23:57 AM »
Lydia,

I noticed that you quoted material from John Correll's Encyclopizza. John used to make that document available for free but now sells it. Did you purchase it by any chance or did you find the material you quoted elsewhere?

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2013, 11:48:48 AM »
Peter

I pulled these from my downloaded free copy from decades ago.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2013, 12:03:28 PM »
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob

Bob

So far there is not issue with gumline. Which is awesome. I mostly have that up to reference the difference between gumline and doughline and how M&E is unique.

When I did my first run on this clone, the formula was already "very nearly" where it needed to be. I thought I would have this done already or at least steaming along.

Right now I'm having a "user" problem. I went through all my notes over and over, couldn't find a thing, then yesterday, I noticed I was using my #50 scoop for the volume amount for the shortening vs the #60. I use the portioning disher because it make measuring shortening a breeze and as long as I level it, It is highly accurate.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »
Iím using a 2 step mixing method: aka ďbatter methodĒ that doesn't fit into any of the definitions listed in the glossary. It's a method used for sweet doughs and commercial laminated cracker production. Coating the flour with shortening for a softer crumb, 45 minutes rest for autolyse type benefits (reduce mix time (under developed dough), extensibity etc.

ME1 - Lydiaís Me N Edís Clone for the KitchenAid - 2 step mixing method

(Weights were translated with KD-8000 scale not the Dough Calculator)
1 tsp. / .20 oz. /6 g. iodized salt
14 oz. Harvest King Flour, DIVIDED (7 oz/198g)
1 T / .45 oz. / 13 g. AP shortening (full trans-fat) #60
1 tsp/.10 oz. /3 g. Pizza Crust Yeast
8.5 oz/ 241 g tap water 110F

Additional HK flour required for rolling/sheeting.
Albers Cornmeal for dusting peel




Step 1: Wet premix; similar benefits as an autolyse- May be easier to do by hand, but timing it in the mixer helps prevent accidental over mixing.

Attach paddle attachment. (Using the Whip works but isnít necessary)
Add to mixing bowl, in order (lightest to heaviest to help with distribution)
7 oz. Flour

Mixing on Speed 3: stir in
1 tsp Salt
1 T Shortening

Mix on Speed 3 for 15-20 seconds (time not too crucial); until shortening is evenly mixed into flour. PIC 1
To test: Flour will coat fingers lightly when stuck into flour mixture. PIC 2

Mix in 1 tsp. Yeast (when adding the yeast 5 minutes after the water the final dough comes out stiffer? Or maybe due to more shortening?)
With mixer running on Speed 1; Pour in slowly water (110F) On speed 3 stir for 3-4 seconds only, just until all flour is moistened and a gloppy somewhat lumpy batter forms. DO NOT OVER MIX.
The batter will look looser than it is and will have a somewhat slimy smooth texture. PIC 3

Remove paddle and scrape bottom of bowl.
Let batter rest; covered, for 45 minutes at room temperature. PIC 4 a bit bubbly; like pancake batter or SD starter

Step 2
When time is up; attach dough hook and stir down batter on Speed 2.
Running on speed 3 sprinkle in the in rest of the flour (7 oz./ 198 g)
The batter tends to resist taking in the flour, so you will need to scrape the bowl with a rubber spatula a few times to get the batter to open up. (This only happens with the pizza yeast.)
Bump the speed up if dough hook is having trouble incorporating flour. I have a 6 qt bowl; if yours is smaller you may not need to..
Otherwise continue to mix on Speed 3-4 until all flour is incorporated. But not any further. It will look scrappy before it is finished kneading, so donít add any more water; just let it run its course. As soon as it is no longer scrappy; Stop kneading. You should have a lumpy, underdeveloped dough. It will not have a smooth surface. At this point the dough tightens up very quickly. If you have a C-hook it will take a bit longer to knead the dough.

The finished dough should be very soft and squishy also somewhere between tacky and sticky. If youíve kneaded it longer it will be more tacky and less sticky and vice-versa. PIC 5

Remove dough hook; and cover. No need to oil, dough releases cleanly with a rubber spatula.
Let dough rest for 2-3 hours at room temperature. At 1 hour have a nice rise, dough is ready at 2 hours.

Scrape dough from bowl with spatula and Divide dough into 3rds approx. 210g, place in a qt. Ziploc baggies. (After scraping from bowl the surface should be fairly smooth and tacky, not sticky. Bowl cleans fairly well.) PIC 6, 7, 8

Place in refrigerator overnight.
Remove in morning to warm all day at room temp. about 10 hrs.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:49:18 AM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 01:17:31 PM »
PICS 5,6,7,8
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 01:19:14 PM »
About Ingredients:

Harvest King Flour and not GM B4B, donít yet know if there is going to be any difference.
Mortonís Iodized salt: Contains salt, calcium silicate, dextrose, potassium iodide.
All purpose Shortening: SF generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5
Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast (yeast, enzymes, sorbitan monostearate, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid.) temperature range: 120-130F (140F kill temp)
Tap water: using 110F which falls close to the recommended temperature for Pizza Crust yeast.
Although for this style of cold fermented dough, the ideal ďfinished dough temperatureĒ should fall into the 85-87F range. For me; this is usually requires water to be 90F.

Found a convenient printable chart from General Mills professional; here. http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart

I was getting a lot of yeast beer flavors at 120 F and a full day room temp. ferment. bench rest bulk ferment
Not the flavor profile for M&E. dough from the mixer at about 90 to 100 degrees F
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 01:20:49 PM »
Sheeting with motorized pasta machine. Many unknowns at this point.
When to flour, how much flour, how many folds before its overworked etc?

Very brief sheeting regimen. Iíll detail this out later.
Currently working with fresh dough and not working on the scrap dough layer.

1.   Flatten and flour approx 6 oz of dough
2.   Sheet on widest setting (Level 1) 2-3 times.  1 or No folds
3.    Reduce setting 2; sheet 1-2 times. No folds
4.   Reduce to setting 3; sheet 1-2 times.
5.   Fold dough in thirds completely overlapping in center and flatten dough making sure there is adhesion. Or else the layers slip when sheeting.
6.   Open rollers to level 1 and repeat steps 2-5 above 2-3 more times.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 01:55:46 PM »


Preheat stone 1 hour. Bake temp is around 500F but ideal is most likely up toward 550F. I can get these temps BUT poor ventilation and hyper sensitive fire alarms are a major deterrent.

At this point Iím not putting the skins in the refrigerator Like M&E.
Note: M&E hasnít ever had the tiny surface blisters.

Also, cornmeal needs to be brushed off of stone if making more than one pizza, as it burns. M&E has an oven broom/brush for this.


Whatís working
Flavor is on the right track.
Ultra thin gumline
Bready top layer.
Ultra thin bottom crust

Need to

Finding ideal dough temp and fermentation times types. Water at 120F with an all-day room temp bulk ferment produces nice strong yeasty beer flavors, maybe a bit too strong. But completely wrong for M&E flavor.
Increase crisping: Had better crisping when shortening wasn't cut in prior to adding water.
Bottom crust color: Considering adding sugar to formula, but feel that higher oven temperatures will solve.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Old Straw Hat Guy

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 12:13:12 AM »
I worked at Me n Eds back in the late 60's before they had their dough recipe prepackaged to keep anyone from getting their recipe.  We just added water and flour to the prepackaged stuff.  The original recipe was 3-1/2 oz by weight yeast
1/2 cup salt
1/2 cup sugar
1 cup oil
6 1/2 quarts water
25 lbs flour. 

After running the dough through the rollers, we picked up and dropped the dough a couple of inches off the table a few times to relax the dough other wise when cutting the rounds, they would be egg shaped instead of round.  Corn meal was used on the make up boards (peel) for easy sliding into the oven and to keep from sticking in the oven.  We also used corn meal in the oven every night to clean the bricks.  Ovens were made for Me n Eds by Montique with bricks on all sides.  Bubble poppers were used because air would get between each layer when the dough was rolled.  I never worked at Shakeys, but I heard they used a roller with dull spikes to perforate the dough to prevent bubbling. 

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2013, 12:19:48 AM »
Well welcome aboard Gary!
Thanks so much for stopping by here on your first post....very interesting info you hare providing. Thank you.
Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2013, 09:28:23 AM »
Gary

Great info. Thank you soo very much.  :D

Do you recall whether the yeast was powdered granules or brick form? And do you recall anything about the temperature of the water?
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Old Straw Hat Guy

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »
I don't remember much, must have made it hundreds of times though.  The yeast was dry, I remember the smell of throwing the yeast in warm water. 

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2013, 03:54:28 PM »
A few thoughts and updates:

In general, I'm not getting the crust color that I was when I first started ďplayingĒ with the new pizza yeast. The Harvest King flour was freshly milled when I received it in December and am starting to wonder if maybe Iím experiencing the loss due to age/storage issues or if maybe I damaged something in the pizza yeast by storing it in the refrigerator. Iím leaning more towards the loss of freshness in flour.

Any thoughts???
___________________________________________________________________________
Me & Edís

I spoke with the Manager again and he confirmed that the skins are not stored overnight for use the next day.

After each round of pizzas the cornmeal is swept from the oven decks and onto the floor. It is then immediately swept into the flip-down dust pan that is build-in between the oven legs.

Iím finding that over-all the pizzas made earlier in the day are better that those in the evening, but flavor isnít quite as pronounced.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
I added a tsp of granulated cane sugar, changed up the fermentation and upped the oven temp. 500F plus.

Mixed dough ďall-at-onceĒ, finished dough temp 90F, and gave it a long (13 hour) room temp. (95 F) bulk ferment. Overnight refrig. and a 4 hour warm up before rolling.

Correct Fermented Flavor picked up nicely but still needs to be more pronounced. Bottom crust color is more even, but still weak. Crispness is where it was when I first started. Not layering dough to reduce the variables.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2013, 04:07:16 PM »
Flour vs yeast freshness...that new type of yeast packet is an IDY yeast, correct?
I keep my IDY in the freezer(1 lb. bag) and it can go a year and still be golden.....3 month old freshly milled flour should not give you any problems either though I wouldn't think Lydia. But I'm sure you know better than I on this matter.
Thanks for continuing on this...sounds like you are having good experimental results. :chef:

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2013, 06:34:55 PM »
Flour vs yeast freshness...that new type of yeast packet is an IDY yeast, correct?
I keep my IDY in the freezer(1 lb. bag) and it can go a year and still be golden.....3 month old freshly milled flour should not give you any problems either though I wouldn't think
Bob

I've assumed it's IDY or a RapidRise, based on recommend usage, but don't know for sure.

Well here's the deal....when I first opened the Harvest King flour, it was behaving a bit better than the GM B4B flour. Mainly better flavor and browning. So I was going to keep an eye on it to see if the Harvest King label was going to turn out to be different than the GM label, but now it's behaving just like I'd expect from the GM label.

I've lost the "magic" that came "so effortlessly" with my first doughs.  :(

Iím hoping that Iím wrong on the flour, but I donít think so. When Harvest King first came on the retail market, with limited distribution, I had much better results. Then after a couple of label changes and full distribution I was having more inconsistencies. I suspected that the flour had been changed, as is usually the case, but after this little incidentÖ. Well, I think itís simply a freshness issue.

This is one of those things where it would be great to know for sure, but bad news for me if Iím right. GM flour has a high turn-over in my area, but the flour usually sets in a warehouse/distribution center for who knows how long before it hits the store shelves.

So, Iím still hoping that someone might be able to tell me that 3 months truly couldn't have made that much of a difference. And I'm not buying another 50 lbs of Harvest king right now to find out.  :-D



Thanks for continuing on this...sounds like you are having good experimental results. :chef:

Bob

Yah, just because I'm not posting doesn't mean that I'm not working on it.  :D The good thing here is that I have a manager that is willing to talk "pizza" with me and I'm working on something "current" that I can sample and compare on a regular basis.

I did have a bit of a distraction. I found that the La Pina Harina flour I prefer to use for flour tortillas was discontinued in November, and had to source new flour. Thankfully, I found something even better. It's a professional tortilla flour that is just now entering the retail market with "very limited distribution". It a rare "California wheat" grown and milled here especially for flour tortillas.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 06:39:59 PM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2013, 11:40:20 AM »
My apologies for letting this topic fizzle out.

I did discover, that my son who was helping me, was indeed grabbing the GM B4B flour bin. It was labeled as both GM B4B and Harvest King Flour. I had asked him about it, and he assured me it "was" the Harvest King flour, but since the GM flour was labeled as both, you can see how that mistake happened.

After that discovery, a head hunter contacted my husband and he accepted the interview. Long story short, and a drive across the states that was a bit reminiscent of a National Lampoons movie, I have just arrived in my new home state of Alabama and am living in a hotel until we get into a rental.

The good news is, that once we finally get into a rental home, I can order fresh flour and yeast and start all over. The other good news is that I will have been exposed to a few more thin crust styles. Specifically Donatos and Pizza Inn.

Donato's was good, but I sure miss the higher amounts of stringy cheese on the California thin crust style. At Pizza Inn, I chose the buffet so I could sample both styles. This was probably not the best choice. Dried out pizza under a heat lamp, isn't the best examples, so we will try them again.

Oh yah, and on the road we chanced by a Peter Piper Pizza. I'm so glad we did. The crust was just how I remembered it. It's like the M&E / Shakeys crust but it has a thicker top layer that was airier (so sorry, no pic). Much thicker than anything we've tried here. The bottom was perfectly crispy like the pics of M&E (with crumbs falling with every bite) but it has darker spots on the bottom indicating higher temps on a stone oven. (Like board member ME gets on the grill with the 2 stone.)

The cheese was disappointing, lower quality, and that was covered with copious amounts an imitation dry powdery Parmesan, that I really wished wasn't there.

At one very limited point in the 80's, Chuck E Cheese had a pizza just like it, and yes, it was good "once". It was when that chain was in it's hay-day in my area of Cali.

Hoping to get my hands back into the pizza dough, soon  :chef:
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2013, 03:19:12 PM »
Congradulations on your husbands new job Lydia! I hope all will be well for you in Alabama....you moved there from Cali...is that right?  Bless your heart, you are braver than I.  :)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2013, 08:38:40 PM »
That's great news Lydia!! In all the hustle bustle of putting a house together, uprooting yourselves and replanting in a state thousands of miles away, the one thing on your mind is making a better pizza? I got to hand it to you Lydia, you are a hardcore pizza lover.    :-D

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2013, 11:51:02 AM »
Thanks guys!

Northern Alabama is a bit like the bay area in California, culturally diverse but with the bonus a southern hospitality, lots of space to breath, gentle rolling hills with wooded areas in between. I love the idea of living in town, while still have a cluster decades old pine trees growing in my back yard. Huntsville is the area where the high-end amenities are. I mean for gawds sakes, the reclining movie theater seats are leather, with a designated 21 over reserved seating with a gourmet restaurant.  ::) BTW, later I'm catching a movie at the $1.50 discount theater.  :-D

That's great news Lydia!! In all the hustle bustle of putting a house together, uprooting yourselves and replanting in a state thousands of miles away, the one thing on your mind is making a better pizza? I got to hand it to you Lydia, you are a hardcore pizza lover.    :-D

LOL...yes it's true. My husband knew to expect our drive to also be a food excursion. The pecking order is Pizza, calMex and old-fashion baking. I've already been scanning the local super markets for new and familiar ingredients. So, the Oscar Meyer pepperoni for the RT clone is abundant around here ;D (happy dance) but cheese will be trial and error. Mexican food is going to be my greatest challenge. I can see that I will be doing a-lot of mail-order. ::) I will die without my tamales 2 x a year. But I'm really looking forward to using southern flour in my baking and curious to see how eastern GM flour differs from the west coast flour.

But..... before I can do all that I have to find a home with a kitchen and pantry I can live with.  :-D


QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2013, 12:00:02 PM »

QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???
That's a new one on me Lydia, too bad they didn't also have the thin & crisy from the 70's.
Sounds like you had a fun trek 'cross country.  :pizza:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Battletoads

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2013, 12:37:25 PM »

QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???

There is one in my city.  It reminds me of the Pizza Huts I went to as a kid in the 80's.  I am from Indiana and off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 or 5 that are like this still.  Though all the new Pizza Hut locations are in strip malls and have much smaller eat-in areas and do not have any waiter or waitresses.

Offline Zing

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #72 on: July 30, 2013, 01:17:47 AM »
Lydia:

Don't know if you are aware of it or not, but there is a built-from-the-ground-up Shakey's that opened on March 28th, 2008 in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is a great place to visit, with all kinds of food available in this college town.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 01:24:19 AM by Zing »

Offline Mad_Ernie

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2013, 01:59:23 PM »
Lydia:

A lot of the Pizza Huts in my area went to delivery/take out only little units in a strip mall, but there are a few sit-downs, although no more waiters or menus at the table.  Some of those places are still found in more rural town areas where Pizza Hut is perhaps one of the few restaurants in the entire area/county.

Glad to hear you made it and are settling.  Looking forward to more of your experiments.  :)

-ME
Let them eat pizza.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2013, 10:52:19 AM »
Yay  ;D   we scored the town-home we wanted. This is the first time that I'm actually thankful the have an electric cook-top. Nearly every home we saw had glass induction which would be totally useless to me.


I've been lucky with pizza ingredients yet still. Thank goodness! I found the Pizza Yeast to exist in a couple of stores, found a few more brands of pepperoni, Poly-O mozz., both whole milk and low moisture. And found a few candidates for shortening.


It will take a bit of time to sort through boxes, but I haven't had my home cooking for over a month now. So, I'm pretty anxious to get cooking again.



The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


 

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