Author Topic: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone  (Read 8964 times)

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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2012, 06:43:59 PM »
 Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2012, 06:57:50 PM »
Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
Yes, it wouldn't be hard to miss, most old pros get in a "groove" and can change settings with a forearm or brush of the chest in one sweeping motion while reloading the dough. I'll bet your mom will catch it next time Lydia.... ;D
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Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2012, 07:02:49 PM »
 :-D

well, I be watching for it next time, from the better angle  ;)
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline DNA Dan

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2012, 01:38:47 AM »
That's one "quick action" lever :-D. I'll have to open mine up to see if there is indeed a clutch in there. I have the synthetic rollers in mine, so perhaps some of these 40% hydration doughs are flexing the rollers a bit. It doesn't sound like it's working hard, it just remains somewhat thicker than the same setting using say a 50% hydration dough. However if I pass it a few more times, it will get down to where it should be. Interestingly enough in the instructions you posted, in the part that explains about setting the stops, they mention to not use the same dough piece over and over again to set the final thickness.

The deal with these two "stops" is their dough management is dialed in. They know exactly how hydrated the dough is going to be every time and how many passes they need to make at each setting. That's why it's difficult to keep the same technique in my experiments for different doughs. It may take more or less passes at a given setting to reach the thickness I am used to.

Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 01:40:29 AM by DNA Dan »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2012, 06:26:21 AM »
Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)


Dan,

In the flour world, this would be my nominee from Montana: http://www.wheatmontana.com/about.php  ;D.

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2012, 10:23:47 AM »
The reason I asked about the Mondako was for some reason I had in my head that it had the l-cystein. I went shopping yesterday at cash n carry and they had the Mondako "thin Crust" Pizza Mix. http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php This Mondako does have the l-cystein.



The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2012, 01:48:36 PM »
Lydia,

Foremost Farms sells a product called PZ-44 that comprises whey and L-cysteine: http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/13): For an alternative to the above link that is no longer operative (since the PZ-44 product line was sold to another company), see http://web.archive.org/web/20060311221117/http://www.foremostfarms.com/products/ingredient/pdf/450PZ44.pdf.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:29:52 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2012, 03:11:21 PM »
I might be wrong about this....but, I assume that the two stops on the machine are meant more for use on one dough ball than a sheet of dough...this would make it a two pass machine when using dough balls.

John

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2013, 10:31:04 AM »
OK, I think Iím back to the official M&E trials now.

My local M&E has a shiny new sheeter. It still looks like the Annettís Sheeter mentioned earlier in this thread except that is stainless steel.
I havenít had another opportunity to see the thin crust sheeting to confirm any of the questions.


I stopped ordering pizza late on weekends due to poor crust quality (massive gum line) and got a new camera, so I was finally able to get some decent pics so you can see what Iím trying to accomplish and can use them as reference points.

Pic 1: crisp, nearly uniform golden bottom crust
Pic 2: Ultra thin golden layer, dry layer, doughy layer
Pic 3 close up of open crumb in crisp layer, ultra thin golden layer,
Pic 4: Bubble separation between crisp and doughy layers
Pic 5: soft but leathery separations in the doughy layer.

The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2013, 10:48:49 AM »
M&E crust breakdown from bottom up
cornmeal
ultra thin golden layer
dry layer
moist layer
ultra thin gum line/wet line.



Iíd like to point a few things out in the pics but first Iíd like to mention a few things for troubleshooting.

 
Quote
Doughy layer is uncooked (i.e., ungelatinzed) dough. As a result, it has the appear¨ance and texture of raw dough. Basically, doughy layer is raw dough that hasnít yet cooked. So the main cure is more heat or longer bake time. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

The difference between raw dough vs. doughy layer is that raw dough will have a wet stretchy quality to it whereas the doughy layer is about the same but isnít as severe. Itís caused from underproofing after balling or overweight dough balls. It will have moist dense undercooked dough that will have a somewhat spongy reaction when pressed between the fingers. To get an idea of the texture, think of mashed Wonderbread, kinda dense and doughy but not stretchy. Most people will find a ďtrueĒ doughy layer acceptable to eat.

- In the unique case of M&E pizzas, the doughy layer isnít really a ďdoughy layerĒ, it is fully cooked. It isnít spongy nor does it compress* (see below). It is just a softer layer with higher hydration. Same dough just softer because it isnít sheeted as much= less flour, less development of the dough. In pic 1 you can see that the dough is completely cooked through.


Quote
Gummy layerósometimes called gel layeróis cooked (coagu¨lated) dough that is lacking air cells. During baking the cellular structure collapsed and the air dissipated, resulting in a dense, grayish, translucent mass with a gummy (gelatinous) texture....... Gummy layer varies in thickness from very thin to almost the entire crust. Itís caused by excessive diastatic action in the dough. So the cure is to reduce diastatic activity. Unlike with doughy layer, extended baking will not eliminate gummy layer. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

To expand on Johnís definition there is another is another type of gummy layer.

One is caused by wet sauce coming into contact with unhydrated or underhydrated bench flour on the skins or by using lower hydration formulas because the flour is open to more hydration. In both cases it creates a true gummy layer ďtranslucent layerĒ except that it is typically clear to yellow in color. Whereas the gummy layer from over-fermented or dead dough is dense, rubbery has some level of a grayish hue.

Because of the bench flour, Sheeted doughs, no matter the hydration are especially prone to developing the clear/yellow gelatin layer caused by moisture migration and is exacerbated with the use of wet sauces. Although Iím finding it less of an issue with wet sauces that include oil and/or cornsyrup.

- The M&E pizzas develop a thin barely noteworthy gelatin layer due to moisture migration from a wet sauce. When looking for the gummy layer, do not use pic 2 or 3. There is an illusion in these. This pizza was cut immediately after removing from the oven before the crust had set and caused compression* over these lines. If you look at pic one, and 4 you will have a better representation of how thin and tender the gel line is. Itís texture is kind of a cross between a gum line and a thin doughy layer.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2013, 11:23:19 AM »
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2013, 11:23:57 AM »
Lydia,

I noticed that you quoted material from John Correll's Encyclopizza. John used to make that document available for free but now sells it. Did you purchase it by any chance or did you find the material you quoted elsewhere?

Peter

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2013, 11:48:48 AM »
Peter

I pulled these from my downloaded free copy from decades ago.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2013, 12:03:28 PM »
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob

Bob

So far there is not issue with gumline. Which is awesome. I mostly have that up to reference the difference between gumline and doughline and how M&E is unique.

When I did my first run on this clone, the formula was already "very nearly" where it needed to be. I thought I would have this done already or at least steaming along.

Right now I'm having a "user" problem. I went through all my notes over and over, couldn't find a thing, then yesterday, I noticed I was using my #50 scoop for the volume amount for the shortening vs the #60. I use the portioning disher because it make measuring shortening a breeze and as long as I level it, It is highly accurate.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 01:15:30 PM »
Iím using a 2 step mixing method: aka ďbatter methodĒ that doesn't fit into any of the definitions listed in the glossary. It's a method used for sweet doughs and commercial laminated cracker production. Coating the flour with shortening for a softer crumb, 45 minutes rest for autolyse type benefits (reduce mix time (under developed dough), extensibity etc.

ME1 - Lydiaís Me N Edís Clone for the KitchenAid - 2 step mixing method

(Weights were translated with KD-8000 scale not the Dough Calculator)
1 tsp. / .20 oz. /6 g. iodized salt
14 oz. Harvest King Flour, DIVIDED (7 oz/198g)
1 T / .45 oz. / 13 g. AP shortening (full trans-fat) #60
1 tsp/.10 oz. /3 g. Pizza Crust Yeast
8.5 oz/ 241 g tap water 110F

Additional HK flour required for rolling/sheeting.
Albers Cornmeal for dusting peel




Step 1: Wet premix; similar benefits as an autolyse- May be easier to do by hand, but timing it in the mixer helps prevent accidental over mixing.

Attach paddle attachment. (Using the Whip works but isnít necessary)
Add to mixing bowl, in order (lightest to heaviest to help with distribution)
7 oz. Flour

Mixing on Speed 3: stir in
1 tsp Salt
1 T Shortening

Mix on Speed 3 for 15-20 seconds (time not too crucial); until shortening is evenly mixed into flour. PIC 1
To test: Flour will coat fingers lightly when stuck into flour mixture. PIC 2

Mix in 1 tsp. Yeast (when adding the yeast 5 minutes after the water the final dough comes out stiffer? Or maybe due to more shortening?)
With mixer running on Speed 1; Pour in slowly water (110F) On speed 3 stir for 3-4 seconds only, just until all flour is moistened and a gloppy somewhat lumpy batter forms. DO NOT OVER MIX.
The batter will look looser than it is and will have a somewhat slimy smooth texture. PIC 3

Remove paddle and scrape bottom of bowl.
Let batter rest; covered, for 45 minutes at room temperature. PIC 4 a bit bubbly; like pancake batter or SD starter

Step 2
When time is up; attach dough hook and stir down batter on Speed 2.
Running on speed 3 sprinkle in the in rest of the flour (7 oz./ 198 g)
The batter tends to resist taking in the flour, so you will need to scrape the bowl with a rubber spatula a few times to get the batter to open up. (This only happens with the pizza yeast.)
Bump the speed up if dough hook is having trouble incorporating flour. I have a 6 qt bowl; if yours is smaller you may not need to..
Otherwise continue to mix on Speed 3-4 until all flour is incorporated. But not any further. It will look scrappy before it is finished kneading, so donít add any more water; just let it run its course. As soon as it is no longer scrappy; Stop kneading. You should have a lumpy, underdeveloped dough. It will not have a smooth surface. At this point the dough tightens up very quickly. If you have a C-hook it will take a bit longer to knead the dough.

The finished dough should be very soft and squishy also somewhere between tacky and sticky. If youíve kneaded it longer it will be more tacky and less sticky and vice-versa. PIC 5

Remove dough hook; and cover. No need to oil, dough releases cleanly with a rubber spatula.
Let dough rest for 2-3 hours at room temperature. At 1 hour have a nice rise, dough is ready at 2 hours.

Scrape dough from bowl with spatula and Divide dough into 3rds approx. 210g, place in a qt. Ziploc baggies. (After scraping from bowl the surface should be fairly smooth and tacky, not sticky. Bowl cleans fairly well.) PIC 6, 7, 8

Place in refrigerator overnight.
Remove in morning to warm all day at room temp. about 10 hrs.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2013, 10:49:18 AM by Lydia »
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 01:17:31 PM »
PICS 5,6,7,8
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 01:19:14 PM »
About Ingredients:

Harvest King Flour and not GM B4B, donít yet know if there is going to be any difference.
Mortonís Iodized salt: Contains salt, calcium silicate, dextrose, potassium iodide.
All purpose Shortening: SF generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5
Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast (yeast, enzymes, sorbitan monostearate, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid.) temperature range: 120-130F (140F kill temp)
Tap water: using 110F which falls close to the recommended temperature for Pizza Crust yeast.
Although for this style of cold fermented dough, the ideal ďfinished dough temperatureĒ should fall into the 85-87F range. For me; this is usually requires water to be 90F.

Found a convenient printable chart from General Mills professional; here. http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart

I was getting a lot of yeast beer flavors at 120 F and a full day room temp. ferment. bench rest bulk ferment
Not the flavor profile for M&E. dough from the mixer at about 90 to 100 degrees F
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 01:20:49 PM »
Sheeting with motorized pasta machine. Many unknowns at this point.
When to flour, how much flour, how many folds before its overworked etc?

Very brief sheeting regimen. Iíll detail this out later.
Currently working with fresh dough and not working on the scrap dough layer.

1.   Flatten and flour approx 6 oz of dough
2.   Sheet on widest setting (Level 1) 2-3 times.  1 or No folds
3.    Reduce setting 2; sheet 1-2 times. No folds
4.   Reduce to setting 3; sheet 1-2 times.
5.   Fold dough in thirds completely overlapping in center and flatten dough making sure there is adhesion. Or else the layers slip when sheeting.
6.   Open rollers to level 1 and repeat steps 2-5 above 2-3 more times.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Lydia

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 01:55:46 PM »


Preheat stone 1 hour. Bake temp is around 500F but ideal is most likely up toward 550F. I can get these temps BUT poor ventilation and hyper sensitive fire alarms are a major deterrent.

At this point Iím not putting the skins in the refrigerator Like M&E.
Note: M&E hasnít ever had the tiny surface blisters.

Also, cornmeal needs to be brushed off of stone if making more than one pizza, as it burns. M&E has an oven broom/brush for this.


Whatís working
Flavor is on the right track.
Ultra thin gumline
Bready top layer.
Ultra thin bottom crust

Need to

Finding ideal dough temp and fermentation times types. Water at 120F with an all-day room temp bulk ferment produces nice strong yeasty beer flavors, maybe a bit too strong. But completely wrong for M&E flavor.
Increase crisping: Had better crisping when shortening wasn't cut in prior to adding water.
Bottom crust color: Considering adding sugar to formula, but feel that higher oven temperatures will solve.
The roundest knight at King Arthur's round table was Sir Cumference.They say he acquired his size from eating too much pi.

Offline Old Straw Hat Guy

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Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 12:13:12 AM »
I worked at Me n Eds back in the late 60's before they had their dough recipe prepackaged to keep anyone from getting their recipe.  We just added water and flour to the prepackaged stuff.  The original recipe was 3-1/2 oz by weight yeast
1/2 cup salt
1/2 cup sugar
1 cup oil
6 1/2 quarts water
25 lbs flour. 

After running the dough through the rollers, we picked up and dropped the dough a couple of inches off the table a few times to relax the dough other wise when cutting the rounds, they would be egg shaped instead of round.  Corn meal was used on the make up boards (peel) for easy sliding into the oven and to keep from sticking in the oven.  We also used corn meal in the oven every night to clean the bricks.  Ovens were made for Me n Eds by Montique with bricks on all sides.  Bubble poppers were used because air would get between each layer when the dough was rolled.  I never worked at Shakeys, but I heard they used a roller with dull spikes to perforate the dough to prevent bubbling.