Author Topic: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......  (Read 2382 times)

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Offline MOCIGARS

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ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« on: December 14, 2012, 07:51:57 PM »
The recipe I used was as follows found on here using Crusty's formula found in this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.100.html

11.8 oz KASL I used ALL TRUMPS 50111
7.7 oz spring water at 76degrees to achieve a final dough temp of 80-85
1/4t IDY
3/4 t Olive Oil
3/4 t salt

Mixed for 2 min on stir, added OO then 2 min on stir, final mix was 7 min on 3 setting out of 10.  The first dough was refrigerated for 60  hours the second a lil under 24 hours. Brought out to get to room temp for approx 1.5 hours to get to 55 degrees.  

I measured everything and the dough was very hard to spread out and kept shrinking. It had good taste(ESP the 60 hour one) so I am not sure what to do. I love the look of Crustys so that is why I used his formula.....

Thanks in advance for the assistance.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 08:06:28 PM »
MOCIGARS,

Here is the direct link to Crusty's recipe:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8700.html#msg8700. Crusty's pizza is indeed a good looking pizza.

By any chance, after you removed the dough from the refrigerator did you reknead, re-ball or otherwise reshape the dough before making the pizza?

Peter

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 08:08:04 PM »
MO,
When you say "very hard to spread out ", what method are you using to form this pizza skin? Are you stretching it out or just trying to press it out into shape?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Don K

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 08:44:12 PM »
11 minutes is way too much mixing for All Trumps IMO. With such high gluten flour you don't really need to knead that much to develop the gluten. When I use AT, I barely mix much at all after the flour is incorporated.
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Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 09:30:41 PM »
Thanks for the direct link Pete. After it warms up I throw it on the counter and try to spread the dough like I see in all the videos. Pushing trying to make and edge and the dough gets flat, but will not stretch. It took me 35 minutes tonight to  get something close to stretched and it was still shrinking as I was putting the toppings on it.

@BOB the first time I tried traditional pushing on the dough and spreading it. Tonight I tried that to start and gave up and tried rolling pin. Neither worked very well. I let the dough rest several times and it didn't help much at all.

@ COL What would you recommend as far as time after I put the OO in ? I have a decent dough after the first 2 minutes. The dough is a Lil sticky after the total time. I usually take the dough out and kneed a Lil flour in to get rid of the tackiness. Could that be the root cause of the problem ?

Thanks
Mo

Offline pythonic

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2012, 01:20:40 AM »
Try letting the doughball warm up even more out of the fridge.  Go 2.5-3hrs.  I use AT flour too and It doesn't stretch out for me when it's still cold either.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2012, 08:00:24 AM »
@pythonic How long do you mix when you use the AT ? Does the percentages I am using come close to what you use ?

Thanks
Mo

Offline Don K

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2012, 08:26:49 AM »
@ COL What would you recommend as far as time after I put the OO in ? I have a decent dough after the first 2 minutes. The dough is a Lil sticky after the total time. I usually take the dough out and kneed a Lil flour in to get rid of the tackiness. Could that be the root cause of the problem ?
Just enough to thoroughly mix in the OO. I don't usually wait until the end to add oil. Some say that it hinders the hydration of the flour, but I don't think that it has that much effect.

It was my eureka moment when I realized that only a minimal amount of kneading is needed with high gluten flours. Ever since then my pies improved tremendously.

Has your crust been tough and chewy?

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Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 08:34:22 AM »
The crust are a little bit tough and chewy exactly how I want them to be. The flavor is dead on ESP the 60 hour one. I am anxious to try this again with less mixing time. I think I will do just 2 and 2 and see how it goes.

Is your dough tacky when you take it out ? Do you just go right from bowl into ball and store it ?

Thanks
Mo

Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 08:37:56 AM »
@COL I forgot to ask you what order you put your stuff in.

I usually put the flour and IDY in the bowl and mix it together. Then I dump the salt into the water and stir it to incorporate.  Make a well in the middle dump in the liquid and let it go on 1 for 2 minutes. Add the OO and do 2 more on 1. Then I did the 7 min on 3.



Offline Don K

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 08:43:20 AM »
Is your dough tacky when you take it out ? Do you just go right from bowl into ball and store it ?
Do you mean when take it out of the fridge or the mixer?

I usually ball and put my dough in the fridge right away.
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Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 08:48:22 AM »
When you take it out of the mixer. Sorry.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 08:58:00 AM »
Mo,

In my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, the stir speed does not do much in the way of kneading but since you are using a bromated flour (the KASL flour is not bromated), you should be able to get away with less kneading, as Colonel_Klink (Don) mentioned. With only 1% oil in the recipe you used, you should also be able to add the oil to the water at the outset. Adding the oil later does help improve the hydration of the flour but at only 1% I think you should be fine adding it to the water. The recipe you used is a commercial one and, in a commercial setting, you would want to add the oil later in the process, just as you did with your use of the recipe.

The hydration you used with the All Trumps is a bit over 65% (7.7/11.8 = 65.3%). The All Trumps has a rated absorption value of 63% but it should be able to handle 65%. However, if that results in a dough that is too sticky, you can lower the hydration value to 63% by using 7.4 ounces of water. Ideally, you want the dough to be a bit on the tacky side. At 63% hydration, I think you may find that you do not have to add bench flour or only a small amount.

As pythonic (Nate) mentioned, you also want to be sure that you give your dough adequate temper time at room temperature before trying to open up the dough balls. That time will vary in accordance with the time of year. It will be shorter in the summer than in the winter.

I think that if you follow all of the collective ideas given in this thread and try a few test dough balls, you should eventually work out all of the kinks and get good results. If you would like me to convert the recipe you used to a baker's percent format so that you can play around with the values, let me know.

Peter

Offline Don K

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 09:12:24 AM »

It is perhaps a little tacky. If you are having trouble balling it because it is too tacky, a little oil or Crisco on your hands helps.

@COL I forgot to ask you what order you put your stuff in.

I usually put the flour and IDY in the bowl and mix it together. Then I dump the salt into the water and stir it to incorporate.  Make a well in the middle dump in the liquid and let it go on 1 for 2 minutes. Add the OO and do 2 more on 1. Then I did the 7 min on 3.
I have tried so many different orders of ingredients. Everybody seems to have a different opinion on this. Personally, I've found that it doesn't really make a lot of difference, especially with IDY. Lately what I've been doing is: Put about 2/3 of the Flour, IDY, and salt in the bowl and I mix it for a few seconds with the the mixer's whisk attachment. Then I add the water and start mixing with the hook. Then while it's still mixing, I add the oil. Then gradually the rest of the flour.
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Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 09:18:22 AM »
Guy's I appreciate it. I was so distraught last night was ready to give up. Today I am ready to try the different techniques and recipes. I will be making dough balls this AM 

Mo

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 09:34:24 AM »
Don is right that there are a lot of ways of combining ingredients. In my case, I add the IDY to the flour and I dissolve the salt in the water to improve its solubility and dispersion within the dough.

With respect to the IDY, it might be mentioned that Tom Lehmann advocates that one rehydrate the IDY in warm water if the total knead time is to be less than about 4-5 minutes or if the dough is to be kneaded by hand. He discusses these points at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16360.msg160246/topicseen.html#msg160246 and Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21801.msg220619/topicseen.html#msg220619.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »
Guy's I appreciate it. I was so distraught last night was ready to give up. Today I am ready to try the different techniques and recipes. I will be making dough balls this

Mo,

The important thing is not to get discouraged. You haven't mentioned a single problem that can't be resolved. It may take some tweaking and some practice making the dough and managing it, but eventually you will achieve good results.

Peter

Offline Don K

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 09:49:55 AM »
With respect to the IDY, it might be mentioned that Tom Lehmann advocates that one rehydrate the IDY in warm water if the total knead time is to be less than about 4-5 minutes or if the dough is to be kneaded by hand. He discusses these points at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16360.msg160246/topicseen.html#msg160246 and Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21801.msg220619/topicseen.html#msg220619.
This is interesting. As I just mentioned, I start with 2/3 of the flour with the IDY already mixed in, then I add all of the water and let it rest for a few minutes. At this point, it is at nearly 100% hydration. My feeling is that this gives the IDY a chance to hydrate.
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Offline MOCIGARS

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 09:56:34 AM »
Yes it is. I was thinking the same thing. I am following your guide Don. Just measured flour for 2 batches !

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: ELASTICITY PROBLEMS.......
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 10:10:51 AM »
Don,

Yeast is a fascinating ingredient. Another little trick if IDY is to be used with cold water is to let the IDY sit in the flour for about a half hour before adding the cold water. Flour has about 14% moisture content (by law) but that is enough to give the IDY a head start from the standpoint of rehydrating and buffers it from the effects of the cold water. Yeast producers are constantly devising new strains of yeast that are resistant to the types of abuse that home bakers (and some professionals as well) subject yeast, such as water temperature that is too hot or too cold, mixing salt or excessive amounts of sugar in the water with the yeast, and so on. Otherwise, the simplest form of yeast, properly used, would be plenty good enough.

Evelyne Slomon also advocates rehydrating the IDY in a home setting, as she noted at Reply 455 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28773/topicseen.html#msg28773.

Peter


 

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