Looking to start using a KASL dough

[XanderKane]

As per my usual routine I have returned again after a long hiatus from the boards. I have continued working on my pizza in my time away and things have been going well. Every now and then though its time to shake things up and move into new territory. Up to this point I've been happily working with the formula Pete helped me with in this thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10781.msg98940.html#msg98940


I've finally decided to go ahead and order some KASL flour. I've got it sitting here at the ready and I've been considering my options. I took a look at the road map to Lehmann style crusts and was unsure what to go with. For as long as I've been doing this I haven't picked up on a lot of the technical aspects of starting over with a new crust. I'm still working with a 15"  screen. Though I've been on and off with the stone, I prefer the screen. Maybe one day I'll get everything right with the stone and change my mind. Its just too frustrating to put days of time in only to have something go wrong with the peel or stone. Anyway, I thought about using the recipe in reply #389, but I'm not looking to deal with sugar. Suggestions?

Thanks for your time,
--Bryan

[Pete-zza]

Bryan,

Here is the direct link to Reply 389 that you referenced: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720.

I don't see any particular problem with your using the formulation set forth in Reply 389, including the omission of the sugar. However, you might want to consider the following additional changes:

1. Lower the pizza size from 16" to 15" since your pizza screen is 15".

2. Lower the thickness factor to 0.10.

3. If it is getting cooler where you live, you might want to use 0.35% IDY.

4. If you will be using a stand mixer to knead the dough, you may want to use a bowl residue compensation factor of 1.5%, and scale the dough ball weight to the amount without the bowl residue compensation.

All of the above changes can be made using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. At the time of the post you referenced, that tool did not exist. It might be a good idea for you to familiarize yourself with that tool since it will allow you to make any changes that you'd like.

If you need any help modifying the dough formulation set forth in Reply 389, let me know.

Peter

[XanderKane]

This is what I ended up with for two dough balls:

Flour (100%):    619.18 g  |  21.84 oz | 1.37 lbs
Water (63%):    390.08 g  |  13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    6.19 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (164.25%):   1017 g | 35.87 oz | 2.24 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs

Seem right to you? I'm still a little uncertain what I'm doing when it comes to the calculators.

[Pete-zza]

This is what I ended up with for two dough balls:

Flour (100%):    619.18 g  |  21.84 oz | 1.37 lbs
Water (63%):    390.08 g  |  13.76 oz | 0.86 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    6.19 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (164.25%):   1017 g | 35.87 oz | 2.24 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs

Seem right to you? I'm still a little uncertain what I'm doing when it comes to the calculators.

Bryan,

Close. You forgot the salt. Using regular table salt, this is what you get:

Flour (100%): Water (63%): IDY (0.25%): Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (1%): Total (166%): Single Ball:

612.65 g  |  21.61 oz | 1.35 lbs 385.97 g  |  13.61 oz | 0.85 lbs 1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp 10.72 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp 6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 1017 g | 35.87 oz | 2.24 lbs | TF = 0.1015 508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs

Peter

[XanderKane]

Ah, I was afraid that I was going to forget something. Thank you for catching that. I generally prefer to use sea salt as opposed to table salt. Running it again with that in mind I ended up with:

Flour (100%):    612.65 g  |  21.61 oz | 1.35 lbs
Water (63%):    385.97 g  |  13.61 oz | 0.85 lbs
IDY (0.25%):    1.53 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    10.72 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Olive Oil (1%):    6.13 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
Total (166%):   1017 g | 35.87 oz | 2.24 lbs | TF = 0.1015
Single Ball:   508.5 g | 17.94 oz | 1.12 lbs

Guess it doesn't really make any difference. Kosher?

[Ev]

If you are using a mixer to knead, i would keep it to no more than 4 minutes. Any longer and you risk overly developing the gluten, resulting in a tough leathery crust.

[Pete-zza]

Guess it doesn't really make any difference. Kosher?

Bryan,

When we (Boy Hits Car and I) were designing the various dough calculating tools, we decided to lump sea salt in with regular table salt because there were far too many types of sea salt to be able to include them in the tools, or even to find a single sea salt that was a representative example of that form of salt. Kosher salts are of larger grain size so we kept them separate. For that form of salt, we used the two most popular brands in the U.S.

Peter

[XanderKane]

Peter,

I see your point. I was sort of trying to make a joke saying "kosher?" meaning 'does that look right?' Another of those instances where something doesn't translate well into type.

 The wife wants to do pizza later this week, so I'll report back.

Thank you again.

[XanderKane]

I'm back to report in after making both pizzas in this batch. We've had a very busy week, as I'm sure most everyone here has, so the first one ended up going in after having just shy of 24 hours of rise time. I don't have photos from that one, but honestly there wasn't much to say about it. We just got married a couple of months ago, so we're in a new house with a new oven and this was the first go round with pizza. The crust ended up burnt a little, and lacked a lot in flavor. I'm chalking that up to not giving it enough time to rise before use. It was a very forgettable effort.

The second we did for lunch today, and it was much better. At this point it had roughly 4 and 1/2 days of cold rise time. The flavor was, of course, far better. There are a few things I have questions about.

First of all, I think the yeast content might need to be cut a little. When I removed it from the refrigerator I was a little surprised to find that it had expanded to at least twice its initial size. Perhaps this is normal, but its never been the case for me in the past. After stretching it there were quite a few bubbles visible. The first picture should reflect that. While it baked there were quite a few large bubbles that grew in the crust all the way around. The crust did have a really nice chew to it, but it was a little thicker around the outside than I'd prefer generally, but the wife disagreed. Thoughts on how I might improve from here? Is it a matter of reducing the yeast? The thickness factor?

[XanderKane]

Sorry to double post, but its been a few weeks. I was hoping someone might weigh in on the last post. I guess reduce the thickness factor and yeast?

[Skee]

How are you mixing/kneading the dough?  What's your proofind routine and when do you ball the dough in the process?  Did you let the dough come to room temp before baking?

[XanderKane]

My process is essentially what Peter has outlined in the past. Kneading in the machine for a couple of minutes, kneading by hnad for a minute, balling it and into the cold to rise. Before preparing it I remove it from the fridge, cover it and allow it to come to temp. I don't let it come fully to room temp, but closer to 60 or so. I had some issues in the past with it being completely unmanageable when fully brought to room temp.

[Chicago Bob]

My process is essentially what Peter has outlined in the past. Kneading in the machine for a couple of minutes, kneading by hnad for a minute, balling it and into the cold to rise. Before preparing it I remove it from the fridge, cover it and allow it to come to temp. I don't let it come fully to room temp, but closer to 60 or so. I had some issues in the past with it being completely unmanageable when fully brought to room temp.

I think you're doing good things here with workflow and the pizza looks great. As you said...increase TF and keep monitoring your dough opening temp. I can't stretch a "warm" dough and like it to be a bit cold.

[XanderKane]

Thanks for the feedback. I had no luck at all trying to stretch a warm crust. It became very difficult to manage. I've had much better luck working with them when they're still a bit cold like you said.

I suppose that my big question mostly has to do with all of the crust bubbles. I've never had one that had quite so many while it was cooking. Is that an indication of a yeast content that's too high?

[Ev]

I, for one, am wondering about your oven/setup. Temp, bake time, stone? etc.
 It looks like you could use a little more top browning. What was the underside like?
It doesn't look like a bad pizza, otherwise.

[XanderKane]

I mentioned in the first post that I don't use a stone, but rather prefer a screen. I know, I know, blasphemy, but there's nothing more infuriating to me than to spend days working on this only to have is stick to the peel or fold over when it goes onto the stone. Not to mention the 45 to an hour preheat time. No thank you.

We're living in a rental place at the moment and I'm trying to get used to the stove. It maxes out at 500. Baking time for that one was 7 minutes. The oven heat seems to be pretty inconsistent to me. Part of the crust was dark and part was pale. You can see what I mean in the picture below. The last one I did around 8 - 8 and a half and parts of the bottom burned.

[Chicago Bob]

Thanks for the feedback. I had no luck at all trying to stretch a warm crust. It became very difficult to manage. I've had much better luck working with them when they're still a bit cold like you said.

I suppose that my big question mostly has to do with all of the crust bubbles. I've never had one that had quite so many while it was cooking. Is that an indication of a yeast content that's too high?

Those yeast bubbles look awesome dude....throw more heat at it like Steve said and you should be golden. Just form a smaller edge/cornicione when stretching if you find you still have more bubbles than to your liking.
Looks great XanderKane.  

[Chicago Bob]

I mentioned in the first post that I don't use a stone, but rather prefer a screen. I know, I know, blasphemy, but there's nothing more infuriating to me than to spend days working on this only to have is stick to the peel or fold over when it goes onto the stone. Not to mention the 45 to an hour preheat time. No thank you.

We're living in a rental place at the moment and I'm trying to get used to the stove. It maxes out at 500. Baking time for that one was 7 minutes. The oven heat seems to be pretty inconsistent to me. Part of the crust was dark and part was pale. You can see what I mean in the picture below. The last one I did around 8 - 8 and a half and parts of the bottom burned.

Put the screen on a stone and that problem will disappear
Jerk the screen out after 2 min and you'll have an even better pie.  Where are you at in the oven (shelf/rack) height?.

[XanderKane]

Its an electric oven, and I have the rack on its lowest setting.

I hadn't thought about using a hybrid stone/screen method. I'd have to figure out how to get the screen out of there without burning myself.

[Pete-zza]

Bryan,

I actually thought that your pizza looked quite good. However, it is important to know that the NY style dough formulation you used is the basic Lehmann NY style. That formulation makes a dough that is intended to be used in as few as 12 hours and as long as 72 hours. Beyond that, you would want to add some sugar to the dough at the outset to give the yeast adequate food and to contribute to crust coloration. But, either way, the Lehmann's crust will not have an excess of flavor. You will do better the longer you let the dough cold ferment, so that you get more byproducts of fermentation that contribute to the flavor, taste, odor, color and texture of the finished crust. Normally, this would suggest using less yeast. However, 0.25% IDY is actually quite low for a winter cold fermentation application. Normally, where I am in Texas, I would use closer to 0.45% IDY. At either value, it can happen that the dough about doubles in volume after about 24 hours but normally it would be quite a bit less than a double in that period of time. It could happen, however, if your finished dough temperature was materially in excess of about 80-85 degrees F, or if you let the dough balls sit at room temperature for a while before refrigerating, or maybe a combination of both. Obviously, if you mismeasured the amount of yeast and ended up with more than 0.25% IDY, then you could easily get a doubling after about a day of cold fermentation.

In tempering the dough before using to make pizza, you want to temper the dough AT room temperature, not TO room temperature, which can vary quite dramatically over the course of a year with changing seasons. Technically, you should be able to use the dough at around 55-60 degrees F, which is the number that some of the big pizza chains specify in their manuals, but I prefer to use the dough at around 70 degrees F.

As for the use of a screen in the context of a home oven, with or without a stone, and in line with Bob's suggestion, you might want to take a look at some of the possible options described at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg20965.html#msg20965.

I am not sure that the amount of IDY that you used should be lowered, especially if the weather is on the cool side where you live. I intentionally chose a higher than normal thickness factor because you are using a pizza screen, but if you end up using a combination of screen and stone you might be able to reduce the thickness factor to a more normal 0.075-0.085 value for the NY style.

Peter