More air in crust

[highfly]

I've been trying various NY style pizza's and would like to have more air in the crust. I cook at 550 on a stone and they come out pretty good but would like to know what I should experiment with to get more air instead of more dense crust.Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Sorry about the duplicate photos.

[Chicago Bob]

hey there highfly,
Can you provide us with a crumb pick and your formula that you are wanting to change?

[highfly]

Hi Bob. I don't have any edge pictures but this is a typical formulation.
Flour (100%):
Water (62.22%):
IDY (.80%):
Salt (2.22%):
Olive Oil (6.67%):
Honey (4.44%):

I would like the edge to be less dense and lighter. Wondering if dough should sit once spread out longer, or would soapstone work better than the pizza stone? Just not sure where to experiment.

[Chicago Bob]

Hi Bob. I don't have any edge pictures but this is a typical formulation.
Flour (100%):
Water (62.22%):
IDY (.80%):
Salt (2.22%):
Olive Oil (6.67%):
Honey (4.44%):

I would like the edge to be less dense and lighter. Wondering if dough should sit once spread out longer, or would soapstone work better than the pizza stone? Just not sure where to experiment.

You have about 6 times too much oil and (imo) about 4 times too much sugar, but maybe you like a real sweet crust. Dial back that oil and let your hydration(which looks good) do it's work.
Take a look at Glutonboy's pie here highfly  ....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12172.msg114714.html#msg114714;

[Don K]

What flour are you using?

[Pete-zza]

Hi Bob. I don't have any edge pictures but this is a typical formulation.
Flour (100%):
Water (62.22%):
IDY (.80%):
Salt (2.22%):
Olive Oil (6.67%):
Honey (4.44%):

I would like the edge to be less dense and lighter. Wondering if dough should sit once spread out longer, or would soapstone work better than the pizza stone? Just not sure where to experiment.

highfly,

Your dough formulation bears little resemblance to a NY style dough. You didn't indicate what size dough ball you used and the size of the corresponding pizza but what you have produced is more like a Papa John's pizza, with a lot of oil and a lot of sweetener (in your case, honey). You can see examples of PJ clone doughs in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. NY style pizzas contain little oil and usually no sugar in the dough, unless the dough is to be cold fermented for more than about two days, in which case about 1-2% sugar might be used. In your case, with 0.80% IDY, your dough is commonly characterized as an "emergency" dough, which is a dough that is intended to be made and used within a few hours. In fact, your dough formulation reminds me of the one that I described in the PJ clone thread at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312. I used a lower hydration than you did, but as I noted in another thread at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg105043.html#msg105043, large amounts of oil and sugar (including honey) will yield a soft and tender crumb because of the retention of significant amounts of moisture during baking, and you are unlikely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender.

In my opinion, your best bet if you are after a NY style is to use a dough formulation that is specifically for that style. That would be a faster and better solution than jettisoning ingredients in your current formulation and making any other needed changes to morph it into a NY style.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

highfly,
Make you a Glutenboy an then get back to me....
Bob

[2stone]

Highfly,

Not to in any way take away from any of the other comments here.....my experience is that you can have as much oil and honey as you are using now if you would like.
If you don't mind, or if you can plan ahead you will really get a lot better results if you (bulk) cold ferment 12 hrs but 24 is better. Your IDY should be from .35 % to .45 % and if you run your hydration at 70 % (or even a little higher you will see a lot of improvement. Do not over mix your dough ....just a couple of min in the mixer and then follow this protocol: http://2stoneblog.com/2012/11/11/gustavsens-knife-trowel-protocol-for-hand-mixing-dough/ for the balance of your mix.
Once you have cold bulk fermented to where your dough has doubled in volume you can make your dough balls and let them rise at room temperature for 2-3 hrs after which you should be able to stretch out your 8 oz dough balls into 12" pizzas. Brush the outer rim with oil, which will help keep the rim softer and more pliable longer allowing for more time before it sets up..... giving you more volume (air) in the crust.

The way you mix / knead your dough has as much to do with your outcome as the ingredients and quantities you use.

Don't be afraid of higher hydration dough. if you use a few rest periods along with the slap and fold technique  you can work the stickiness right out of the dough to where it becomes quite user friendly and should slide off your peel without much problem.
Just google slap and fold or stretch and fold videos if you need some examples.

Good luck
Willard

[Chicago Bob]

Willard,
highfly has 10 posts so I assumed(also by his writing style) that he just needed a 'lil simple help for now to keep him from getting discouraged/overwhelmed.
You make good pizzas Mr. 2stone 

[2stone]

Chicago Bob,

Yes you have a point there....but just in case he turns out to be a brain surgeon with ten posts, we both got him covered!

Willard

[Chicago Bob]

Chicago Bob,

Yes you have a point there....but just in case he turns out to be a brain surgeon with ten posts, we both got him covered!

Willard

Happiness...the ulterior motive. 

[Tscarborough]

Brain surgeon or not, that pizza looks mighty fine.

[Chicago Bob]

Brain surgeon or not, that pizza looks mighty fine.

Really...don't it man. 

[highfly]

Well, I'm not a brain surgeon, but I'm willing to take a stab at it! Thanks very much for the replies. I think I'll try less time in the mixer, I may have been over doing things there. If I do a same day pizza I don't use sugar but have the same result as far as the crust goes.
Bob, think I'll give the Glutenboy a go.
By the way, Arezzio non bleached pizza flour.

[highfly]

Last night after work I made "Steve's quick & easy" with a bit of ide added. I greatly reduced the kneading and got closer to what I was looking for. I like experementing with things I can eat!

[Chicago Bob]

Thumbs up...looks great. Is that crumb more open?

[highfly]

It is, and it extends throughout the whole crust. I think I'll try a couple day ferment with a tad more hydration than I normally use. Hoping my issue was over kneading. I may have gotten hung up on the windowpane test without  really knowing what I was doing.

[Chicago Bob]

It is, and it extends throughout the whole crust. I think I'll try a couple day ferment with a tad more hydration than I normally use. Hoping my issue was over kneading. I may have gotten hung up on the windowpane test without  really knowing what I was doing.

Yes, sounds like you have rebounded quite well...windowpane test is not used much anymore around here..