Author Topic: Using a starter instead of ADY  (Read 932 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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Using a starter instead of ADY
« on: December 27, 2012, 09:31:13 AM »
What adjustments need to be made when planning on using a starter for the 1st time? Is there a ratio of ADY to starter to be used in a dough recipe? I have done a lot of reading online as well as Normas lengthy thread when she jumped into the world of starters. It seems there are several methods, amount of starter used, feed the starter 1st wait a few hours and then use etc... Im hoping the dough and starter experts on here can help me along. Thanks in advance!

Chaz
Chaz


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 10:19:08 AM »
Chaz,

The bottom line is there is no substitute for experimentation. No matter what anyone suggests or tells you, the odds are that you will need some amount of experimentation and tweaking to get things they way you want them. IMO, sourdough (I'm making the assumption that is what you mean by "starter") is a labor of love. It's not a matter of following a recipe and having a reasonable expectation of good results. It takes experimentation, learning, and practice.

There are no set ratios for substitution as every starter performs differently from factors that include, but are not limited to, the culture itself, the flour it is fed, the feeding/use schedule, the starter hydration, the ambient temperature, the final dough formula and work-flow, etc. You can minimize some of these variables by following what someone else has done as closely as possible, but even so, you should expect to need to make several rounds of tweaks - maybe more. To the end of giving others a place to start, I've tried to document everything I do - every step - here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069 

With respect to a conversion, for my Ischia culture in the 60-75F range, I would say it is approximately: 1% Ischia = 0.015% IDY, 0.02% ADY, or 0.05% CY. If you are using Ischia, this is probably as good a starting place as any. It may be a good starting point for other cultures, or they may be very different.

Craig
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 10:51:12 AM »
To get the full benefit from the starter you should use the starter to provide all of the leavening for your dough. If you use both starter and yeast, there is a high probability that the yeast will become the dominant microflora in the dough, resulting in more of a yeast leavened flavor in the finished product rather than the unique flavor provided from the starter which is developed through both yeast (wild yeast) and bacterial ferment (some form of lactic acid forming bacteria). You will need to experiment with the amount of your starter to determine how much will be needed to provide both flavor and leavening leavening to the dough. Some starters are quite active so only a relatively small amount is needed (5 to 15%) while others are less active so more (20 to 30%) is needed. These percentages are based on the total flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 11:48:08 AM »
Thanks for the quick replies guys, I appreciate it. The starter is in fact Ischia and as of today is 10 days old and looks like it is ready to be used. I plan on having quite a few experiments to see what taste I like most, but I kind of just wanted a general starting point. For the batches of dough that I usually make (which I typically do an overnight bulk cold ferment) , I use 1 tsp of ADY. So I wasnt sure if I should use 1 or 2 tablespoons of starter or 1/4 cup of starter as a baseline.
I received the book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" for Christmas and was looking through a lot of the recipes contained in that book. Im a little confused about the Levain vs. Final Dough #s in a recipe. For example, the recipe for "overnight pizza dough with levain" yields five 340 gram dough balls. The recipe is as follows:

Levain
mature active levain 50g
white flour 200g
whole wheat flour 50g
water 200g 85-90F

Final dough
white flour 900g
water 620g (90-95F)
fine sea salt 20g
levain 180g

Am I correct in thinking that I would only use 180 grams of the mixture of mature active levain, white flour, whole wheat flour and water in the final dough or am I missing something. It doesnt seem correct to have a mixture weighing 500g and only use 180g of it. Sorry for the silly questions, but I feel like I cant see the forest through the trees so to speak.

Chaz
Chaz

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 01:33:27 PM »
Am I correct in thinking that I would only use 180 grams of the mixture of mature active levain, white flour, whole wheat flour and water in the final dough or am I missing something. It doesnt seem correct to have a mixture weighing 500g and only use 180g of it.

I think you're probably reading it right.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2012, 07:54:12 AM »
Chaz;
I think another way of looking at it might be as follows;
Levain as shown is made with 250-grams of total flour weight and 50-grams of mature active levain or 20% of the flour weight in the levain is mature active levain. Then on the dough side we have 900-grams of total flour weight and 180-grams of the levain or 180 divided by 900 X 100 = 20%, so in this case we are using levain at 20% of the total flour weight in at the dough side.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Using a starter instead of ADY
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2012, 08:49:55 AM »
Chaz;
I think another way of looking at it might be as follows;
Levain as shown is made with 250-grams of total flour weight and 50-grams of mature active levain or 20% of the flour weight in the levain is mature active levain. Then on the dough side we have 900-grams of total flour weight and 180-grams of the levain or 180 divided by 900 X 100 = 20%, so in this case we are using levain at 20% of the total flour weight in at the dough side.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for that different perspective Tom! I appreciate your input.
Chaz