Author Topic: Dough Question....  (Read 3128 times)

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Offline JPY

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Dough Question....
« on: December 18, 2005, 09:26:36 PM »
My father uses refridgerated water ( about 40 F) for his pizza dough.  He says that it retards the proofing and is more practical.  Then he lets it sit in the fridge for at least 18 hours.  He is also very quick on moving it from the mixer to the fridge. Does anyone else do this?
-JP-


Offline chiguy

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2005, 09:57:46 PM »
 Hello JPY,
 You're father is not the alone in this procedure. Alot of our members use the retarded dough process along with many pizza operators, retarded dough has been widely discussed here at pizza making if you do a search. The reason you're father is controlling the water temperature is that the finished dough temperature going into the refridgerator should be between (72-84F). The retarded dough is ready in about 12 hours instead of the 3 hours for a same day dough. The retarded dough can last in the refridge for at least 3 days and sometime longer. In my opinion the retarded dough procedure makes for a better tasting dough/crust for alot of pizza recipes.  Chiguy

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2005, 10:47:46 PM »
JPY,

What your father says is essentially correct for a cold fermented dough. I personally adjust the temperature of the water to achieve the finished dough temperature in the range that chiguy refers to, but it is possible to use cold water as your father does. That is, in fact, a common approach that is used when the dough is intended to be frozen once it has been made. A key point to keep in mind, however, is that yeast does not like to be shocked by cold water. So, if instant dry yeast (IDY) is used, it is a good idea to mix it in directly with the flour. You might even leave it in the flour for about 15-20 minutes before adding the cold water to allow the IDY to absorb some of the moisture in the flour itself. If using active dry yeast (ADY), it should be proofed in a bit of warm water (at around 105-115 degrees F) before adding it, along with the rest of the water (cold), to the flour.

Like your dad, I try to get the dough into the refrigerator as soon as possible, especially in the summer. On occasion I have even put the dough in the freezer section for a while if its temperature is above the range mentioned by chiguy. I then move the dough into the refrigerator compartment. The whole objective is to slow down the fermentation process and let time do its thing.

Peter

Offline JPY

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2005, 11:21:41 PM »
He does put the yeast with the flour.  Since he is from France originally his recipe is not for the traditional Neapolitan style pizza.  I think what he has in the dough is:

7 cups all purpose flour
1 cup semolina
1/4 cup olive oil
1 full teaspoon sugar
2 teaspoons salt
3 cups water
1 1/2 teaspoons yeast (IDY)

The water, sugar and salt are mixed and then added to the flour mixture.  He does do 5 cups of flour first with the semolina, then adds the water mixture.  Then the rest of the flour is added, where he checks to see if exactly seven cups are needed.  He likes to go by how it is mixing instead of using the exact amount of flour.   When we do our cooking demos it seems to go over very well.
-JP-

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2005, 11:53:52 PM »
JPY,

Without knowing how much of the flour is actually used, it is hard to be exact, but just looking at the recipe you posted it looks an awful lot like a NY style dough but with semolina added. Even the proportion of semolina to the total flour is within the recommended range. I would guess that the semolina will provide a measure of chewiness to the crust (because of its relatively high protein levels) but the crust will still be reasonably soft in the crumb because of the fairly large amount of oil used (I estimate around 5% by weight of flour/semolina). The small amount of yeast (I estimate around 0.4%) is also characteristic for a dough that is to be cold fermented. I would guess the hydration (the ratio of the weight of water to the weight of the flour/semolina) to be around 58%, but it will be higher if not all of the flour is used. The salt and sugar are proper for the amount of flour/semolina also. I estimate that the recipe will yield somewhere between 4 to 4.5 pounds of dough, depending again on the total amount of flour used. Do you know how many pizzas he is able to make from the dough, and what size (diameter) they are?

I'm fairly confident that the recipe you posted will produce a very nice pizza. Everything is in proper balance, at least for a NY style. It is fairly common, by the way, for pizza operators to use semolina in their NY styles.

Peter

Offline JPY

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2005, 12:08:35 AM »
I will still figure the 7 cups of flour.  The size of the pizza is usually about 12"/ 8 oz.  I'm not sure how many pizzas are made, maybe 8.
-JP-

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2005, 12:37:43 AM »
I estimated a total dough weight of around 70 ounces, based on using 7 cups of flour and one cup of semolina (plus all the other recited ingredients). If that amount of dough is used to make 8 pizzas at 12 inches each, the thickness would be more in line with a Patsy's NY style, rather than a NY street style. Either way, you should get good eating.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2005, 07:00:15 PM »
Tonight I made a pizza with the French-style dough recipe of JPY's father. I made the dough yesterday and put it into the fridge to chill immediately after making it. I only made half of the recipe and did have to add a little more flour to make it hold together in the food processor. Next time I will make it either by hand or with the KA mixer and try not to add additional flour.

I really like the texture of this dough and the crunch that the semolina flour adds. Of all the pizza that I have made this year, this dough recipe has the best aroma coming from the dough as it bakes! The crust edge didn't brown too much after baking at 500 for 8 minutes.

Thanks JPY! I'll make this dough again!
pyegal

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2005, 08:19:11 PM »
Teresa,

One of the things you might consider trying next time with the JPY recipe is to add some dried dairy whey, and possibly vital wheat gluten (VWG), to the flour blend. All-purpose flour is lower in protein than the other flours you have been using and a crust made from it will often not brown up as much as crusts made, say, from bread flour or high-gluten flour. If you compare the photos at Reply #204 and # 205 at the Lehmann thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.200.html, you will see what I mean. The pizzas shown were based on the same dough formulation but the last one used dried dairy whey and VWG together with the all-purpose flour. The dough processing was the same for all the pizzas, and all the doughs were cold fermented for about a day. The ovens were different (one was in Mexico and the other at my home in Texas), so that may also have been a factor, but it is certainly clear that the last pizza (shown in Reply # 205) with the dried dairy whey and VWG had a much darker crust. In your case, you might just try adding some dried dairy whey to begin with. For half of the recipe, that would be around 5 teaspoons.

I am also curious to know what the crust characteristics were, in terms of crust flavor, crumb, chewiness, softness, etc. FYI, the amount of semolina you used is about 5% of the total flour blend by my calculation, so its contribution protein wise is fairly modest.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2005, 08:50:49 PM »
 Hi pyegal,
 I bake my pizza at 550 for 8 min sometimes. I can see by looking at the pizza's cheese that this pizza could have stayed in the oven for 2 more minutes at 500F. This could help with the browning a bit. I do not like burnt cheese myself so keep an eye on it. When JPY discussed the recipe's orgin he was not really specific of a style of pizza, just that his dad is french and that it will produce a good pizza. Aside from a neopolitan pizza, alot of pizza recipes will call for more sugar in the crust to increase browning. This recipe has very little, under 1% i would say. This is the easiest ingrediant to use to help with additional browning as most people have this in their cabinet. You should be able to add 1 1/2 teaspoons more sugar with no real taste difference in the finished crust.
 As usual Pete-zza is correct is his assesment and has given some great advice with the VWG and Dairy whey. I just wanted to suggest another option you could try.   Chiguy


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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2005, 09:15:11 PM »
chiguy is correct. Sugar is another option. I tend not to use as much sugar in my doughs as others, but it is certainly an option, and especially in this case where, by my calculation, the sugar logs in at around 0.30%. 1% sugar is a common figure, so tripling the sugar to 1%, that is, 3 teaspoons instead of one, should work. The benefit of dried dairy whey is that it contributes to coloration but doesn't show up as sweetness in the finished crust. But, at 1% sugar, you won't get a lot of sweetness either. You usually have to get above about 4% for most palates.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2005, 09:34:29 PM »
Thanks for the advice guys! I did add 2 t. VWG into the flour for this dough, but I don't have any dried dairy whey, nor do I know where to get some. Do you think this is an item Whole Foods might carry? I can get to a nearby Whole Foods.

The crust tonight was thin and crisp, but I had a little too much flour on the work surface, which I should have brushed off the pizza. I put the skin on a screen and baked on my oven tiles. I used a blend of 4 chopped cheeses, mild red hoop cheddar, havarti, mozz, and Mont. Jack. Also topped the pizza with some chopped Canadian Bacon (and some pineapple chunks on half - shhhhh...don't tell anyone, just wanted to try it). The mix of cheeses was not a winner, I think some were too dry. I should stick with mozz, but I don't think mozz has a whole lot of flavor going on.

One advancement: the frozen pizza sauce was not too watery this time. I had used crushed tomatoes, garlic, Penzy's Pizza seasoning, a bit of sugar, a dash of red wine vinegar, and some tomato paste (about 1/2 a six oz. can of paste to one 28 oz. can crushed tomatoes). This made a thick flavorful sauce.

As to the crust characteristics: as I mentioned, this recipe had the most wonderful aroma while it was baking, perhaps the semolina affected that? The edge didn't have the large voids that the Lehmann recipe produced, nor the "droop" characteristic of NY style pizza - the crust was more firm, but shaped pretty thin. There was a nice chewiness to the pizza crust and in my opinion, a tighter crumb. I put the rest of the dough in its zip bag back into the fridge for another pizza in a day or two. I would not characterize this crust as "soft" - but that's just my opinion of this first try.

Teresa

Offline chiguy

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2005, 10:00:46 PM »
 Hi pyegal,
 If you want a cheese with great flavor, finely shave a little Pecorino Romano onto the pizza before baking, and even a little parmesan. A drizzle of EV olive oil also makes a difference. The Percorino Romano is a Italian import made fron sheeps milk and boy or girl in you're case is it awesome. It is also a healthier cheese and contains vital omega 3s, eaten in Sardinia where the male life expectancy is second only to Iceland i believe.
                                                                                                            Chiguy

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2005, 10:01:04 PM »
Teresa,

I was at the Whole Foods in Dallas recently. That is where I originally found the dried dairy whey in the bulk bins. This time, it wasn't available in the bins but I saw it in bags from Bob's Red Mill. My recollection is that it was quite inexpensive for the amount you get. A bag will last an awful long time.

It is always a challenge to decipher recipes given in volumes, but I estimate that the hydration percent for the recipe you used, in particular, the amount of water in relation to the all-purpose flour and semolina, to be around 58%. That, alone, can mean a tighter crumb. Also, if the recipe is intended to make enough dough for roughly eight 12-inch pizzas, the thickness of the crust will be more like a Patsy's style than a Lehmann style. I think that may be why you got the thin and crispy texture and the lack of a droop. If you made a thicker crust by simply using more dough for the same size pizza, I think you would get a more tender crust (mainly because of the high amount of oil) and possibly some droop. I have not made enough doughs using semolina to be able to say that I detected a more pronounced aroma, but at around 5% semolina I am not sure whether that would be enough to produce the enhanced aromas.

Peter

Offline JPY

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2005, 10:25:53 AM »
One thing to note is that we use a wood fired or gas fired brick oven for all of our pizzas. That may be the difference. What I have noticed is that the bottom does not get as brown as some other pizzas if have seen, even if the oven floor is 750F. Usually when I go out to have pizza ,for example at CPK, the pizza is very brown on the bottom, and I know that they do not run the ovens that hot. 
-JP-

Offline pyegal

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2005, 03:42:49 PM »
Yes, JPY, I agree about this dough recipe not getting as brown on the bottom as other recipes. I bake all my pizza on my tiles placed on the rack at the lowest setting in my gas oven set at 500 (that's the highest it will go) and I have achieved some nicely chared bottom crusts this way.

Today I had the last of last night's pizza re-heated in the toaster oven and it was very good - as good as fresh out of the oven, actually!

Teresa

Offline sebdesn

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 03:57:12 PM »
Pete,   Fairly new to the list and have a question about sugar in dough.
What is its purpose? Is it for flavor,color, or jacking up the yeast activity? If so, with the long ferments, I would think it would be used up long before baking.
Bud


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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 04:52:57 PM »
sebdesn,

You have touched upon the major purposes. Sugar does contribute to flavor, mainly in the form of sweetness when the amount of sugar gets above about 5% (by weight of flour), and it promotes crust coloration and feeds the yeast. The yeast gets sugar from several sources. It gets a small amount of sugar in immediately usable form from the flour, but the bulk of it comes from rather complex sugar conversions and from enzymatic action on the starch in the flour. Of course, you can also add sugar. A long fermentation, especially one at room temperature, will usually use up more sugar than a short one, all other things being equal. A cold fermentation usually uses less sugar than a room temperature fermentation, all other things being equal. It's the residual sugar that remains in the dough at the time of baking that determines the color and other qualities of the crust. Sugar also helps the keeping qualities of a crust, but that is usually of little consequence since most pizza is consumed right out of the oven.

Peter

Offline pyegal

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2005, 11:22:28 AM »
Just to follow up:

Last night I used the rest of the French-style pizza dough posted earlier on this thread by JPY. I was somewhat concerned that the dough had spent too long in the refrigerator and was no good - but that was not the case. I made two pizza crusts with the dough, ending up with 3 12" crusts total for half the recipe. The crusts last night were even better than the one made a few days earlier. And, if I didn't know any better, I could have sworn someone sneaked in my kitchen and cranked up my oven! I had it set on 500 degrees per usual, but it seemed to be cooking somewhat hotter than that. I had a darker, more definite char on the bottom crust this time and even more browning on the parchment paper between pizza and quarry tiles than usual. The pizzas were done before the 8 minutes that it usually takes in my gas oven.

This crust recipe is really tasty and I like the crunch of the semolina flour. I will keep this recipe to make again.

Thanks to you and your dad, JPY!
Teresa

Offline Caz at Margheritas

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Re: Dough Question....
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2005, 12:01:56 PM »


sebdesn,

You have touched upon the major purposes. Sugar does contribute to flavor, mainly in the form of sweetness when the amount of sugar gets above about 5% (by weight of flour), and it promotes crust coloration and feeds the yeast. The yeast gets sugar from several sources. It gets a small amount of sugar in immediately usable form from the flour, but the bulk of it comes from rather complex sugar conversions and from enzymatic action on the starch in the flour. Of course, you can also add sugar. A long fermentation, especially one at room temperature, will usually use up more sugar than a short one, all other things being equal. A cold fermentation usually uses less sugar than a room temperature fermentation, all other things being equal. It's the residual sugar that remains in the dough at the time of baking that determines the color and other qualities of the crust. Sugar also helps the keeping qualities of a crust, but that is usually of little consequence since most pizza is consumed right out of the oven.

Peter

We do not add sugar to our dough for exactly these reasons. BUT we do use a woodfired oven, If you use a domestic oven you may want sugar to help caramalise the crust and give more colour, more quickly, during the lower temperature cooking. As I mentioned in the thread about our neapolitan dough recipe the natural sugars produced by yeast activity make the dough unsuitable for very high temperatures after 48 hours but it still makes a great crust or bread in a domestic oven after that time.

Caz

PS this is why you can not put sun dried tomatoes on a pizza before cooking, They have high natural sugar content and sugar burns quickly. Aways add sun dried after cooking unless you like that chewy brown intense flavour and texture.



 

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