Author Topic: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway  (Read 45595 times)

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Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2013, 12:28:21 PM »
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1118.0.html

There is the link to what i refer to. I guess most people here have read it already...


Offline andreguidon

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2013, 12:45:05 PM »
Faglia, Just go 2cm higher with the dome, this is not going to make any difference.... none of the neapolitan ovens have exactly the same hight, all of them are made by an artisan, and 2cm of difference is not an imperfection...
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2013, 07:20:49 PM »
Got the info.

MG forni is Raffaele Mele
MV forni is Raffaele Vasallo

they are not together any more.

Sorry for the off topic: Andre - was this recent? I got a quote from Mele a few months ago under MV Forni.

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2013, 05:33:58 AM »
John this is recent... i have no idea what happened....

the email on MV forni is Vasallo's email, and the contact on MG forni is Mele's.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2013, 08:04:13 AM »
No worries John, This is a interest of mine to so.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2013, 10:15:37 AM »
Ok,
The oven is now ready for the sand form. Tried to get sand from the beach haha but it was like ice and rock hard.
Ill guess i have to buy some then..

Instead of creating a angeled ring with fire brick over the oven opening i got lazy and just mixed upp vermiculite and some lime, portland cement and clay. Think ratio was 4:1:0,5:0,5 or something like that. I thought i was smart here but after some thinking i thought this might be a problem due to forces in the oven and also the heat. Would not be grat if there got to be a crack in the vermiculite mix which would maby cause some problems. In any case i will have steel harness around the whole angled firebrick course something like stovemasters that you can see in next reply.

Does anyone have an opinion then please tell me.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 10:16:48 AM »

Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 10:17:44 AM »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2013, 12:57:50 PM »
I think what you did over the arch is fine, all it needs to do the way you built it is take the load of the dome and transfer it to the steel via compression.  It should do that fine.  

I notice you did not stagger the joints on your upper soldier, make sure you stagger them in the dome.  

What sort of dome profile are you using?  The angle on top of your soldier looks a little steep and has me wondering if you are going to follow Marco's advice there too and have it flatter in the middle?

BTW, looks awesome!
-Jeff


Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2013, 04:07:26 PM »
Please Jeff can you explain what you mean exactly with stagger the upper soldiers? Sorry but i did not understand this.
When i came up with the angle on the soldiers i used the forno bravo plan for a low dome and transfered it to a build with even lower dome.
The angle is steeper in the start like you said and a more flatter roof in the middle. But to me it sounds crazy to have a flat roof. Will it really hold up when some force is placed on top?

I actually dont know if it is even possible to do like marcos picture and also how nesessary it is for a good pizza reslult it is? Anyone have an idea?

Therefore i made the angle to fit a flatter roof but if i decide to use a more even angle across the roof i can always fill the bigger gap with mortar in the first course of the dome.

In the picture one can see that i mortared the vermicultie in same radius as the rest of the angled soldiers. Therefore i can use a perfectly round harness around the soldiers.


Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2013, 04:14:28 PM »
ahhhh what a mistake haha. My good i think i know what jeff means here. The joint on uppersoldiers should not be in same place in circle as in the lower soldier?
How big of a problem would this be then?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2013, 05:02:11 PM »
I don't think it is going to matter. It might even be stronger the way you built it as the weight of the dome will be completely borne by brick. If you staggered the second tier, a large part of the weight would be over the mortar columns on the back side of the soldier course. Your metal band will prevent any separation. Definitely stagger each course from this point up.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2013, 09:02:23 PM »
I agree with Craig, what you have done so far is no big deal, just make sure you stagger the joints in the dome.

I asked about the dome profile because of your plan for the steel harness reinforcement.  A simple arched profile will put all it's outward force on the top of the soldier where you are reinforcing.  A shape like Marco described would not, so it is something to consider structurally speaking.
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2013, 10:06:04 PM »
A flat roof would rely on adhesion, I do not recommend that.  It is possible to create a lense shape and still reach the ceiling height you want.  I was actually surprised that the angle required for a 42", 15-1/2" dome was 45 degrees on the sailor course, I thought it would be be more.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2013, 11:15:26 AM »
Here are my thoghts.
I am more leaning towards the half lens half elipse version, but iam not 100% sure.
The other line in the drawings is a perfect lens even thogh i dont know exactly if i have the terminology right.
Iam leaning to half lens half elipse beacuse of ease of building it. Both versions can fit my upper soldier angle.
In both versions the total hight will be appr. diameter/3,2 with soldier hight of appr. 8,5 ".

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2013, 11:45:46 AM »
For structural reasons I would personally build the lens shaped line you have in both versions.  I don't think the compound arch makes much difference, and although probably not a fatal structural issue it isn't ideal with the way you plan to reinforce.
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2013, 12:54:22 PM »
I agree with an ellipse, but not exactly how you have drawn it.

I would think the foci of the ellipse would be F1) approximately the center of the fire and F2) approximately the center of the baking pie (such that the edge of the pie is a couple inches off the wall).

Keep in mind that the foci of the ellipse are on the deck - not on the plane across the top of the soldier course. The soldier course truncates the edges of the ellipse, so you are only building the top part of the ellipse which looks somewhat like your "half lens" design.

In the drawing below, the dome height is H1, however, arched portion of the dome is only H2 = H1 - soldier height.

(Illustration not to scale)
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2013, 03:52:28 PM »
Ok,

Actually Craig the so called half lens I did is more or less the same to what you did draw. I just couldnt explain my self there ;)

When comparing craigs suggestion and jeffs and toms suggestions there seem to be only minor differences if i got it all correctly.
When i did it in right scale craigs design was more like a lens shape than i first did draw in my half lens half ellipse design.

Would this then work better you think jeff given my reinforcement strategy?

Thanks a lot by the way, this would have been a big fail without everybodys help.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2013, 03:53:33 PM »
Comparison of lens and craigs ellipse..

Offline kiwipete

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2013, 04:14:36 PM »
Very interesting topic this, because I'm considering these things for my own oven at the moment.

So the difference between the two curves is about 7-8 millimetres..

My gut feel says that its negligible in terms of structural impact and just go with the one that you prefer / find easiest to do.


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2013, 06:10:13 PM »
Yup, as drawn in the newest drawing I think you are fine, but am curious to hear what Tom thinks.  I feel the tiny amount of force that will not be directed to the steel harness is well within the limits of what mortar can handle, but Tom is an expert on that type of thing, I'm just going by gut. 
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2013, 06:26:13 PM »
I personally don't like the steel band, but since you are using it, you could technically make it flat and under compression by tensioning the band, so either way will be fine.  I would say that a continuous curve will be easier to build than that varies, though.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2013, 06:26:55 PM »
I would say that a continuous curve will be easier to build than that varies, though.

Even with a sand form?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2013, 07:58:21 PM »
I haven't used a sand form, but I do not think it is as simple as laying the brick upon the sand; you still have to position it correctly.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2013, 08:13:26 PM »
It's darn close, lol.  Of course take that with a grain of salt, my oven has a very low very flat dome.  Obviously the steeper you go the more positioning that will be needed. 
-Jeff