Author Topic: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway  (Read 43049 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #150 on: July 12, 2013, 10:03:16 AM »
Ok jeep you are welcome  ;D not much to see yet though but hopefully soon..

Yes Tom i thoght about it and i did read all that i could find about the vent and jeffs thoughts.

As i now understand a neapolitan vent makes more sense in an oven like craigs where  the oven is all mass.
SO if i insulate the vent it would actually be better just to let the gas go staright up like most peolpes ovens instead of taking a
unesseasry route over the dome. That would be correct yes?

I will think about it over the weekend beacuse i need to have a strategy of how to solve it in the best way if i do it.
I might also just let the fluepipe go straight up half way up the middle of the dome.

I know it has been discussed before but any more insights would be appreciated and maby explenations of pros and cons if there is any new thoughts..

The biggest and most important question is which alternative is best for coocking neapolitan pizza? Which one will preform better more or less..

Thanks you.


Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #151 on: July 12, 2013, 11:21:30 AM »
I think either will perform fine, it is just a matter of preference where the flue is.  A straight flue will obviously provide a better draw than an angled one.  The theory (I guess) behind the ceiling being exposed in the Neapolitan flue is that the heat of the flue gas is "reclaimed" as it exits the oven.  I think any reclamation would be more than offset by losses incurred at the same time <shrug>.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #152 on: July 12, 2013, 05:22:38 PM »
Ok, thanks so if i understand you correctly. You do not Think it matter if i put extra insulation between the oven dome and the vent or not? I made it like Picture below and as you can see I can just put some extra insulation in and raise the bricks a couple of inches if needed.


By the way jeep i live Close to gothenburgh :D

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2013, 05:23:29 PM »
Another view.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2013, 05:27:00 PM »
meaurments of my vent over the dome.
The opening is 17,7 inch wide and 8,7 inch high. so appr 121 inch 2.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1221
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2013, 08:32:08 PM »
I think either will perform fine, it is just a matter of preference where the flue is.  A straight flue will obviously provide a better draw than an angled one.  The theory (I guess) behind the ceiling being exposed in the Neapolitan flue is that the heat of the flue gas is "reclaimed" as it exits the oven.  I think any reclamation would be more than offset by losses incurred at the same time <shrug>.

It's actually the opposite.  The Neapolitans claim the dome heats the vent, increasing the temperature of the gases and thus increasing draw.
-Jeff

Offline Jeep Pizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 230
  • Location: NC
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #156 on: July 12, 2013, 09:29:22 PM »
By the way jeep i live Close to gothenburgh :D

Fagilia I am making regular trips to Lulea by way of Stockholm. I may be able to fly over early and make a day trip to Gothenburg.
Time is money, money is power, power is pizza and pizza is knowledge.

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #157 on: July 13, 2013, 12:19:32 AM »
Either way, I think they are wrong.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #158 on: July 13, 2013, 04:13:28 AM »
Ok but if there is a difference. I guess the difference is not great enough to ruin my neapolitan pizza making? Hope so in any case. ;D


Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1221
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #159 on: July 13, 2013, 10:20:40 AM »
Either way, I think they are wrong.

And you and I are in 100% agreement.
-Jeff

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #160 on: July 13, 2013, 12:01:47 PM »
Faglia, you have a work of art, and it will be able to produce Most Excellent Neapolitan pizzas.  Are you working on your dough formulations?

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #161 on: July 13, 2013, 02:58:58 PM »
So you jeff agrees with tom that insulating the space between the dome and the vent is a good idea?
Thanks in any case both of you.

That wold be cool jeep and you are welcome offcourse..

Offline Tscarborough

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3772
  • Location: Austin, TX
    • Pizza Anarchy
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #162 on: July 13, 2013, 03:10:22 PM »
I think we are in agreement that the configuration of traditional Neapolitan oven venting as well as insulation detailing,  is not the most efficient method of construction.

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1221
  • Location: Detroit
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #163 on: July 13, 2013, 04:11:22 PM »
Exactly as Tom said.  The oven will work great no matter how you configure the vent at this point, but if you got crazy and crunched some numbers the traditional vent would be the least efficient, followed by the traditional vent with insulation between it and the dome.  The most efficient would be a straight up vent with a fully insulated dome, but again we are talking laboratory level stuff here.  In practice they will all work great for you.  My only caveat is I would put a damper in the flue if you plan to do a traditional vent, otherwise you will be convection cooling the dome once the fire is out as I have laid out in other threads.
-Jeff

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 695
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #164 on: July 13, 2013, 07:37:06 PM »
Hi fagilia,

Congratulations, your oven is a piece of art, one of the best home-made I've seen !

There  is not much insulation in the ferrara / acunto ovens





Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #165 on: July 15, 2013, 07:00:08 AM »
As you guys can see the angle turn between the dome and the ventpipe is pretty Sharp in my oven as well as with the Sf ovens. I have been thinking about evening out the transition between the two and try to curve it a bit. Would this be agood idea or is the idea just to overdo things?

When the guys was filming inside the acunto oven it actually looked like this was more smooth than in the sf oven.

ABout dough formula. I have only been baking dough in my own oven and  it is not good enough. The pizzas comes out chewey. But i have a pretty good idea of how to mix the dough softly with my Swedish Ankarsrum mixer. Old Electrolux dlx.
A few times i tried baking them in a pizzeria where the temp got up to 400 celcius and every time the result was ok but not good enough:)
I know i have al lot of work to do but i look forward to it just lika a challange.


Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #166 on: July 15, 2013, 07:03:15 AM »
What i had in mind was a Little more like this.


Offline pizzaneer

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1476
  • Location: Nirvana
  • Pizza and zen more pizza
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #167 on: July 15, 2013, 08:40:28 AM »
Putting an arc in your vent will have an effect you would need lab equipment to measure.  As others have said, it will work fine for you either way.  Every oven is different - as a cook, your task is to get to know it, and how to use it best. 
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Online TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15449
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #168 on: July 15, 2013, 09:16:29 AM »
I don't think the angle matters. The cross-section of the vent is much larger than that of the flue and the gas is hot, so I think the vent area is going to be low pressure (relative to the flue) and higher pressure at the top inside the vent area. As such the flue is going to be sucking gas off the top of the vent and the angle at the bottom is likely insignificant.

I think your second arrow describes the gas flow more accurately even with the sharp transition.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #169 on: July 15, 2013, 03:18:26 PM »
Cool thanks all of you guys. This site is really truely amazing. I really hope i can give something back to other beginners one day.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #170 on: July 17, 2013, 05:28:40 AM »
Even though iam not a fan of steel inside the oven i plan to cover the vent over the oven in thin corten steel and then just insulate over it.
Firebricks are not wide enough to go over the whole vent and i cant find bricks that looks like in SF oven pics.
I will Place the steel over the vent with hooks. I will not use screws or anything so it can move a Little if it has to.
Any objections about this method just pleace tell me, I can change.

I was first thinking of armouring a form and then just use the mortar to kind of cast the roof over the vent but i decided it was out of my League:)
I dont have the competence.

But as said if anybody Think its a bad idea just tell me.

Also i ordered a real chimney pipe unisolated with a damper attached to it just above the top of the finished oven. I guess i need good stuff here if i sometime want to put inside a house.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #171 on: July 17, 2013, 05:29:21 AM »
also using steel over the vent will save weight.

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #172 on: July 17, 2013, 02:05:39 PM »
Ok off to insulation since i cant finish the last part of the cimney until one week from now.
I will leave that part open and finish as much as i can of the other parts first.

So i plan to first put insulation blanket (rock wool) around and over the dome. I will also put it over the vent.
Then i will cover the rest in vermicrete with high ratio and finish it all with stucco.
 
Would this be a good plan?

Offline sub

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 695
  • Location: Belgium
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #173 on: July 17, 2013, 05:30:38 PM »
Hi Faglia,

on the mobile oven from the Ferrara catalog:

Quote
Isolamento con doppio strato di alluminio e fibroceramica ad alta densità • spessore 25 mm.

Insulated with a double layer of aluminum and high-density ceramic fiber • 25 mm thick.


Neapolitan builder GRIMALDI GIUSEPPE put also ceramic fiber to insulate the oven.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 08:45:11 PM by sub »

Offline fagilia

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 394
Re: Finally a Swedish neapolitan WFO underway
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2013, 06:31:55 AM »
ahh all new info to be considered :)
It suerly looks like Grimaldi has done it the way both tom and Jeff thought was the best if you want the chimeny above the oven. He has insulated over the dome under the vent area?
Thanks for the Pictures by the way.