What are NY style baking temps?

[mkevenson]

I have read here that there are 2 general categories of NY style pizza, street style and "elite" style. Both use different baking temps. I think I remember that NY style in coal or wood fired ovens run approx 800 degrees, and street style (slice) much cooler.
Home cooks are generally limited by their oven max, I have a 2 stone that will cook hotter than my home gas range, I am trying the recipe put forth by Bubba found here: reply # 28. I am doing the 14 oz dough ball option.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19201.20.html

Any recommendations for baking temp for this recipe?

Mark

[scott123]

Mark, you've stumped me on this one.

You're using a dough with a thickness factor and oil quantity that are decided American/low temp/long baked/not really NY, but with an oven that gravitates toward Neapolitan and Neo-NY bake times.

With that much oil, I would probably err on the side of caution- maybe 575. I think 575 with Fibrament should be in the 5-6 minute realm. You also want to temper the heat going up the back by dialing down the gas.  It's tough, I've never seen a long baked pizza on a 2stone.  I do think you want to be minimum 5 minutes with that dough or you might end up with a gum line.

[TXCraig1]

He notes in several of his older posts that 550-575 "works well in most cases," though it sounds like he was at 675F in his restaurant.

[waltertore]

Having made many pizzas on home ovens and commercial ovens I have found that if one is using a home oven it becomes a puzzle to find the right height to place the stone and temps.  I had one home oven, an electric, that cooked perfect at 550 using the lowest rack and dale tile red quary tiles.  No messing with the broiler, moving stones, just put it in and it cooked perfect top and bottom. It was a cheapo used one that outperformed every home gas oven we have owned.  Currently we have a top of the line kenmore convection gas oven and it stinks for making pizzas and I am using the same tiles.  Luckily I have 2 blodgett 1000 ovens to use nowadays.  I cook my pies at 550 for the kind of pies I grew up with in the NYC/NJ area.   One thing is the stones in the blodgett are 1.5" thick and contain asbestos which really makes for an even bake.  Also the short deck space keeps the heat right where you want it.  Walter

[Ev]

Asbestos? Is that safe?

[shuboyje]

This is New York style Steve, we got Bromate in the flour, Nitrates in the pepperoni, the oven's gotta pull it's share too, ROFL.  

[Ev]

Sure, why not. What was I thinking?

[scott123]

FWIW, while researching soapstone, I found out that in rare instances, soapstone can contain asbestos veins running through it. Because of this, I looked into the danger of asbestos being consuming orally, and, from I can tell, there is none. It's only when inhaled that asbestos becomes a carcinogen.

For the customer, an asbestos containing stone poses no threat.  For the employee, though, I would take a few precautions.  Rather than using wood to launch and metal to turn and retrieve, I would probably using wood for both, making sure to have two separate wooden peels, so the cooked pizzas don't get defiled with raw flour.

I would also clean the decks with the softest possible brush.  I did some research on soft brushes when I first started looking at soapstone, under the assumption that the soapstone I'd get would be talc-y and scratch easily, but the soapstone ended up being much more durable than expected.  Anyway, extremely soft non metal brushes don't stand up to heat.  Thin bristle brass brushes might be the answer, but I'd perform an exhaustive search to make sure there's nothing better out there. The last thing you want to do is use a brush that scrapes the decks and sends asbestos particles airborne, which, in turn, causes them to be breathed in by your students. Inhaled asbestos is a huge deal.

Lastly, I'm sure your aware of this, but if you continue using these decks, don't ever say the word asbestos in front of a health inspector, as they'll shut you down in an instant.

If you want to breath a little easier (literally and figuratively) and get rid of the asbestos decks completely, you should be able to approximate their heat spreading effect with firebrick or fibrament, although the firebrick could involve adding additional support structure.  You can also help even out hot spots with a layer of steel plate underneath the hearth. If you do replace them, take IR readings of the decks and time the pizzas carefully.  The temp and time will give us a better idea of the conductivity of the material, which, in turn, will help you choose the best material to replace it.

[waltertore]

Hi Scott: Thaniks for all that information.  I contacted Blodgett and they said my stones may or not be the old ones.  The guy that services all our commercial kitchen equipment for the district looked at them last week and jotted down some numbers on the stones.  He said he would let me know if they contained any asbestos.  He contacted me yesterday and said they are the newer replacement blodgett stones that are asbestos free.  I have heard mixed reviews of these stones for holding heat but my pies cook evenly.  Here is a picture of one with no rotating during the bake time- about 8 minutes total bake time.  Walter

PS:  We put the pies in with a wooden peel and remove them with a metal one(much easier for my students to master) and scrape them down with the traditional brass wire brush with the scraper on the other side.  

[scott123]

Walter, that's good to hear that the stones are asbestos free and yet are still giving you even baking.  1.5" is thick- probably the thickest of any commercial pizza oven on the market today. Thicker stones can take longer to pre-heat but they tend to provide very even heat.

Have you witnessed any recovery issues when your output is at it's highest?

[waltertore]

Hi Scott:  The stones take about an hour to get up to temp.  So far no recorvery problems.  Our biggest order was 30 pies at once a couple weeks ago and we did them all in 1 oven with no noticable changes in the final product (6 -  16" at a time).  I should state up front that I am not of the math mind.  I don't note bake times or things like that.  I learned the old school way by feel. We have basic dough recipes based on cups not weight and adjust water amount/temp to dough as the environment tellls you via how it feels coming out of the tap.   We do weigh out our dough balls.  Our sauce is also an eyeball thing with basic measurements for ingredients and then adjust accordingly- like cloves of garlic vary in size.....  I do all my baking this way and amazingly my students get it.   For me, it is all based on feel.   So take my reponses with this in mind.

These ovens are so easy to work with.  Once I retire I will take them with me (I purchased them with my own funds).  My dream is to open a small shop with just enough room to hold the ovens, fridge, mixer, prep table, sinks, and have a to go only business in Sebastopol, CA.  I would make about 30-40 pies a day and done.   Nothing else. No drinks, sides, only pepperoni, sausage, mushrooms, for toppings.  I feel that if you make a real quality pie people will buy it. I am learning that here in Licking County Ohio where Little Cesars is considered a great pizza!  We charge $7 for a 16" pie (cheese or peperoni) and peopole are buying them reluctantly and then returning with big smiles and saying that was the best pizza they ever had.  This says a lot to me because this area of the country is as far from real deal  NYC style  pie as Mars is from earth. Walter

[Ev]

That's a great looking pie Walter! Looks like you pie makers are really getting the hang of it!

[scott123]

Walter, while a lot of NY's legendary pizza makers work volumetrically (a coffee can of this, a mug of that), if you are going to open a business, even a small one, I highly recommend developing a little more math mindedness.  No matter who you are, fledgling pizzerias will always get curve balls.  The flour might change, the environment will fluctuate or something else unexpected will arise.  As you troubleshoot the issue, your life will be far easier if your measurements are more precise by utilizing weighed ingredients.

I applaud the simplicity of the approach you're considering.  Complexity really is the kiss of death for NY style pizza.

If the pie's you're selling are top notch, keeping to 30-40 pies a day can be very difficult. You can close early, but that tends to irritate people.  I know of one pizzeria well outside the NY area that begin with a business plan of 30 NY style pies, but is now doing 100ish a day.

[waltertore]

Hi Scott:  Thanks for the response!  I am of a different brain wiring. I have been a professional musician for 40 years, own my own record label, recording studio, book, manage, and basically am totally self contained.  Most of what I have accomplished has looked bad on paper but my heart tells me what to do.  I have made it this far in life with no real finacial or emotional worries.  It is a magic that comes with following ones heart.  This is how I pulled off ths school bakery.  It met with so much resistance over the years that most would have given up but my heart keeps guiding me around the obstacales.  I find the feel of things is the way to do it and a system actually evolves out of this.   To clarify things- I am now forced to be accountable for all income and expenditures.  THis is something that I find of no interest  but do it.  There is a ton of paperwork with money transfers in the public school system.  The gift is it is training me to all the nuts and bolts of survival in this business.  they say the universe puts in front of us what we need to learn and it has done this in spades with me and money management.  I have made it this far in life with the feel approach to money as well I have tossed lots of pies and made lots of baked goods/breads in bakeries  over the years when my music was not paying the bills but never worked the finacial end.  

I have all my recipes written out and laminated.  That is the basis of things but they change with dough products as the temps, humidity levels change in the baking environment.  I based my band out of Brussels for 2.5 years.  That city is a mecca of dough genius.  I got friendly with the corner bread maker and learned a lot of things that added to and suported my approach to dough.  My vision of the 30-40 pies a day will more than cover the cost of living in Sonoma County (along with my and my wifes retirement pensions).  I was raised in the Newark NJ area and was deeply inspired by the small Italian Cafes that were in our neighbohood.  These guys were from Italy and ran the show much like I do.  You make a solidly good product and people will come.  I am not a greedy sort and have no desire to get rich.  I enjoy making pies, keeping the old school way alive,  and chatting with people.  All I will need is like a 3-400 sq ft worksapce.   My wife and I would work a short day and go home.   Anyway, I live a different kind of life based on spontinaity and have learned to accept it doesn't make sense to most people.  Walter

Here is a link to my music if  you are interested. I am pioneering a new way to do music and much like my bakery program it has been a interesting journey!

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=157137

[waltertore]

That's a great looking pie Walter! Looks like you pie makers are really getting the hang of it!

Thanks!  It is a blessing to be able to work with a population that finds my program a dream come true.  It is something they can do in our society!  Walter

[mkevenson]

Walter, let me know when you open in Sebastopol, 5 min from me. I will be 1st in line. Good luck, hope your plans turn out well.

Mark

[waltertore]

Walter, let me know when you open in Sebastopol, 5 min from me. I will be 1st in line. Good luck, hope your plans turn out well.

Mark

Will do Mark!  By then you will probably be my competition  The main thing is the final product-proof is in the pudding.  Keep experimenting and you will find your sweet spot.  My pies are not a copy of any particular pizzeria.  They are my take on all the good pizzas I have eaten over the years.  I have tried copying Star Tavern pizzas (wearing one of their hats in the pictures) but lose interest.  They got it, own it, and when I want it I eat theirs.  But I have been deeply inspired by their pies.  Walter