Author Topic: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.  (Read 3510 times)

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Offline shuboyje

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A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« on: December 31, 2012, 09:05:44 PM »
I've been active on lots of different forums for a long time now revolving around my many and varied hobbies.  While some of them have been friendly and civil communities, others(most) have been like a daily war fought between rival factions.  When I first got involved here, and at other pizza related sites like forno bravo, I noticed how friendly they were.  People gave advice when they had some to give, and took advice when they needed a hand.  Lately that seems to be changing.  Both here and at Forno Bravo it seems like it is almost daily that a new member comes with questions and then does not like the answers given by more experienced members and begins arguing with them.  It's something that I have seen many times on lots of other forums, but never on these pizza specific ones.  It's especially disturbing to me because in the past I have seen this exact type of behavior turn a forum into a warzone.  What gives and what can be done to help ease the problem? 
-Jeff


Offline bfguilford

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2012, 09:31:58 PM »
I share your concern, Jeff. I come here to share knowledge with people who generally have a lot more of it than I do. In my "day job", I have often been hired/asked to step in where there is conflict, and do that willingly. However, I am uncomfortable with the flaming that seems to becoming more frequent on this forum.

As I've said before, I would appreciate it if members would pause and read their posts before hitting the "Post" button, especially if they are feeling a little hot at the moment. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind responses that appear (to me) to be knee jerk reactions to something that was said. There are ways to disagree respectfully, and I request that people start to filter their own posts.

Barry

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2012, 09:52:24 PM »
Jeff,

I think what you are observing reflects the increasing amount of incivility, and maybe even worse, that permeates and infects not only forums like this one but also other venues that allow commenters. I think a major cause of the incivility is the fact that people can hide behind their anonymity, and that gives them the cover they need to say things that they would never say if they had to sign their real names to their comments or if they were made face to face with a real person. Even I hide behind a cover of anonymity. But I am ever mindful of that and therefore conduct myself on the forum as I would in person or if my real name were attached to my comments. The tension between full disclosure and anonymity is not a new one. See, for example, this recent article that I found quite interesting on the subject: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-13/those-diabolical-anonymous-commenters.html. As social media have become more popular, I also feel that forums that were not particularly social in the past have become more so. And, with that, people feel that they can be more open and direct with their comments. I am constantly amazed at the amount of profanity, and quite vulgar at that, that I see in many places that allow people to comment on any given topic. And no one seems to care or to flinch. It's as though you can't be cool unless you conduct yourself accordingly.

In my opinion, you are are a very good example of the type of member I like to see on the forum. You are obviously smart, you really know your stuff, you are articulate and know how to state your positions, and to the point, you care about the subject (pizza), and you are civil, respectful and helpful. That is why I always look forward to your posts. I could name many other members that fit the same profile but I would be likely to forget someone who deserves to be named. For members like you, it wouldn't matter whether you gave your real name or not. Your comments and your behavior would be the same.

Peter

enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2012, 09:59:47 PM »
I'm not sure anonymity is the main reason for "incivility" on this forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the current requirement for newcomers is to post an introduction declaring (amongst other things) their name. How is NewbieBarniefromAK any different from TXCraig1 in that regard?

enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2012, 10:07:23 PM »
Also I am extremely thankful in one regard for the distinct LACK of profanity on these forums. I would LIKE to think it's due to an overall sense of civility among members (old and new) but I'm sure Bill and Peter in their moderator roles have a better idea of how accurate that is.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2012, 10:12:00 PM »
Lately that seems to be changing.  Both here and at Forno Bravo it seems like it is almost daily that a new member comes with questions and then does not like the answers given by more experienced members and begins arguing with them.   
I think that is just the age old "popularity" issue, Jeff. The 2 sites you mention are quickly growing in reputation for being "the" source for their respective knowledge base. Most "new members" are looking for a quick fix and when people don't bend over backwards to immediately help them....that opens the door for Peter's "anonymous poster syndrome". They are "surfers" trying to act up with minimal to zero skills/knowledge...easy to spot...jus ignore them man...they all go away fast.  ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2012, 10:16:25 PM »
Quote
I think that is just the age old "popularity" issue, Jeff. The 2 sites you mention are quickly growing in reputation for being "the" source for their respective knowledge base. Most "new members" are looking for a quick fix and when people don't bend over backwards to immediately help them....that opens the door for Peter's "anonymous poster syndrome". They are "surfers" trying to act up with minimal to zero skills/knowledge...easy to spot...jus ignore them man...they all go away fast.  

So how do you suggest one differentiates between someone with minimal skills looking for help  and the "surfers" or "anonymous posters" you are so quick to dismiss? I think it's important to remember we all started at some point with zero knowledge.

Perhaps there is a philosophical divide between those who see the forum as a means to find answers to specific issues/situations and those who see it as a place to train budding pizzaiolos according to established templates/schools-of-thought on pizzamaking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:21:25 PM by enter8 »

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2012, 10:22:00 PM »
So how do you suggest one differentiates between someone with minimal skills looking for help  and the "surfers" or "anonymous posters" you are so quick to dismiss? I think it's important to remember we all started at some point with zero knowledge.
Uuuum...the ones that prompted this thread?

From the OP....
 "Both here and at Forno Bravo it seems like it is almost daily that a new member comes with questions and then does not like the answers given by more experienced members and begins arguing with them."

Enter8...I was clear in whom I was addressing(I thought) ???
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enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2012, 10:24:57 PM »
Bob, my question was not who you were addressing but how you differentiate on the basis of someone's question/post on this forum. Do we simply ignore all questions from newcomers based on the probability that they are "anonymous posters"?

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2012, 10:25:04 PM »
Also, I wasn't "quick to dismiss" anyone.....I told Jeff that "those" people are quick to dismiss.....themselves.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2012, 10:26:07 PM »
If they are dismissing themselves then why is there still a problem? Clearly something is happening here which is more than simply a barrage of  "anonymous posters"

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2012, 10:33:18 PM »
If they are dismissing themselves then why is there still a problem? Clearly something is happening here which is more than simply a barrage of  "anonymous posters"
Dunno...maybe cause we average 6-10 new members a day?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2012, 10:38:58 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the current requirement for newcomers is to post an introduction declaring (amongst other things) their name. How is NewbieBarniefromAK any different from TXCraig1 in that regard?

I believe that Steve has changed the method he uses to process new members, but my recollection is that members do not always give their real names when they complete their profiles even though those names are not revealed to other members. As a Moderator, I would often see members either not provide any name or a bogus name. People cannot be forced to reveal their real names, for privacy and other legitimate reasons. Even Facebook, which recently reached one billion members, and which tries to have members use their real names, has bogus accounts. In one of its recent statutory reports as a public company, Facebook said that over 83 million of its profiles are fake.

Peter

Edit: Corrected number of Facebook members.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 11:34:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2012, 10:49:17 PM »
I believe that Steve has changed the method he uses to process new members, but my recollection is that members do not always give their real names when they complete their profiles even though those names are not revealed to other members. As a Moderator, I would often see members either not provide any name or a bogus name. People cannot be forced to reveal their real names, for privacy and other legitimate reasons. Even Facebook, which recently reached one million members, and which tries to have members use their real names, has bogus accounts. In one of its recent statutory reports as a public company, Facebook said that over 83 million of its profiles are fake.

Peter
That's comical...83 million of their billion(?) members are fake!  Hmmm ::)

Bet they are "All Americans"  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:52:45 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2012, 11:36:44 PM »
Bob,

Thank you. I meant billion, not million. I corrected my post on this.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2013, 12:03:30 AM »
I'm not sure anonymity is the main reason for "incivility" on this forum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the current requirement for newcomers is to post an introduction declaring (amongst other things) their name. How is NewbieBarniefromAK any different from TXCraig1 in that regard?


It's no different assuming Barnie is the person's real name.

To me anyway, enter8 and TXCraig1 are different. Of course, that difference can be mitigated by putting your name in your profile or signing your posts with your name. I'm not talking about you specifically, but in general, I don't know why so many members don't want to share their first name.

CL
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enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2013, 12:11:53 AM »
It's no different assuming Barnie is the person's real name.

To me anyway, enter8 and TXCraig1 are different. Of course, that difference can be mitigated by putting your name in your profile or signing your posts with your name. I'm not talking about you specifically, but in general, I don't know why so many members don't want to share their first name.

CL

FWIW it's in my profile and I've stated it several times in posts.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 12:26:56 AM »
FWIW it's in my profile and I've stated it several times in posts.
And now you are doing it with Craig...Enter8, if you will read our posts(maybe a 'lil slower)....you will see you do not need to be defensive in your reply's. 
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

enter8

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2013, 12:31:01 AM »
Errr...in what way defensive, Bob? I was just pointing out where my name info was stored at. I didn't perceive Craig's post as an attack. Strange that you seem to feel I did though.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: A disturbing pattern I'm starting to notice.
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2013, 12:40:34 AM »
Errr...in what way defensive, Bob? I was just pointing out where my name info was stored at. I didn't perceive Craig's post as an attack. Strange that you seem to feel I did though.

Oh..OK...jus thought it odd that you felt a need to point out where your name is.....while posting a quote of Craig's(where he indicates he is not talking about you specifically) in that very same post of yours.

Sorry enter8, but I can't spend my night reiterating everything for you friend.  :)
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