Author Topic: Milk Kefir again  (Read 1892 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2015, 10:18:49 PM »
Norma,

An alternative would be to use the version produced by the expanded dough calculating tool.

Either way, you could also skip the bulk ferment and go directly to the individual dough balls. That would cool the dough balls down faster than the bulk dough. So the dough balls might ferment a bit more slowly. Whether that would overcome the stickiness problem or produce better results would remain to be seen. Going this route might also require an increase in the amount of the kefir mix if the dough balls don't ferment quite enough.

Peter

Peter,

I will try the the version you set forth produced by the expanded dough calculating tool and won't do the bulk.  Do you think it would be better to try the same GM flour that is used at market?  If so it can be picked up tomorrow.  Do you want any pH numbers of the milk kefir or the dough?  I will take the final dough temperature for the next attempt.

Norma



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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2015, 10:34:03 PM »
Peter,

I will try the the version you set forth produced by the expanded dough calculating tool and won't do the bulk.  Do you think it would be better to try the same GM flour that is used at market?  If so it can be picked up tomorrow.  Do you want any pH numbers of the milk kefir or the dough?  I will take the final dough temperature for the next attempt.

Norma
Norma,

Since you used the Full Strength flour before, it perhaps makes sense to stick with that flour.

If you don't mind taking the pH readings, it might be interesting to see what they are.

Peter

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2015, 08:20:48 AM »
Norma,

Since you used the Full Strength flour before, it perhaps makes sense to stick with that flour.

If you don't mind taking the pH readings, it might be interesting to see what they are.

Peter

Peter,

I never read the specs for the GM Full Strength bleached flour and the GM Full Strength unbleached flours but I wouldn't think there would be much of any differences.  Just to be clear I do use GM Full strength bleached flour at market and I used GM unbleached flour in the last experiment.  I only used the GM unbleached flour because I didn't have any of the GM bleached flour at home.

I will take some pH readings.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2015, 06:51:44 PM »
There was a small piece of dough leftover when the last kefir dough batch was divided.  It was balled and oiled and put into a small baggie.  It was forgotten at market since Tuesday in the Styrofoam container. 

I sure don't know happened but think the acids in the kefir fouled up all of the protein in the flour and then there was no gluten structure.  I would guess that acids react strongly with the protein of dough.  The dough ball that was once okay turned into goop.  :-D  Just for the heck of it the pH was taken.  The pH value is in the one photo.  I posted about a sticky dough but this dough was so sticky it never could have been saved.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2015, 07:19:29 PM »
Norma,

That is very interesting. The destruction of the gluten structure was most likely due to the acid byproducts and the protease enzymes. Both of these tend to be end of life phenomena.

Peter

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2015, 09:50:08 PM »
Peter,

That little goop today reminded me of a dough I had left in the prep fridge for three days and had posted about at Reply 1578 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg377527#msg377527  That dough did have a some gluten left because it could be reballed and then went on to be a pizza.  I was somewhat surprised today to see the little piece of dough had disintegrated.  I wonder if using the milk kefir made the dough disintegrate faster than a dough made with IDY.  The dough that was left in the prep fridge on the other thread at least didn't disintegrate.  It has been cooler than usual in our area the past few days so it should not have been that warm at market.  When I went into market today someone forgot to turn off the big exhaust fans that vent the building where I am located.  It was very cool and airy in there today.  Also the two ice packs in the Styrofoam container were still cold and partly frozen when I took the other dough ball out for Jeff.  I had forgot the dough ball was in the Styrofoam container, but didn't want to bring the Styrofoam container home because I had too many other things to bring home Tuesday.  Since I didn't use a lot of the milk kefir in the dough it is hard for me to understand how the kefir would break down the dough so fast.  I am now wondering if that is why the last dough ball got sticky after the bulk ferment.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2015, 10:18:50 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago when I played around with natural starters, I would intentionally try to destroy doughs using such starters just to learn new things. As I noted at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18753.msg200629#msg200629, I did likewise with commercially leavened doughs. If you look at Reply 28 where Everlast (Damian) replied to my post at Reply 27, he said that what happened to his dough, which was commercially leavened with a small amount (2%) of natural starter, was as if the gluten structure just completely disappeared from the dough. In Damien's case, the killer was leaving the dough at a warm room temperature for hours.

Your latest example seemed to be as aggravated as Damien's case where the effects of the protease enzymes and acids of fermentation were enough to push the dough to the point of no longer being usable. However, it isn't always easy to describe the chemistry, especially after the fact, of what happened to the dough from moment to moment to be able to make a clear cut diagnosis.

Peter

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2015, 10:59:12 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago when I played around with natural starters, I would intentionally try to destroy doughs using such starters just to learn new things. As I noted at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18753.msg200629#msg200629, I did likewise with commercially leavened doughs. If you look at Reply 28 where Everlast (Damian) replied to my post at Reply 27, he said that what happened to his dough, which was commercially leavened with a small amount (2%) of natural starter, was as if the gluten structure just completely disappeared from the dough. In Damien's case, the killer was leaving the dough at a warm room temperature for hours.

Your latest example seemed to be as aggravated as Damien's case where the effects of the protease enzymes and acids of fermentation were enough to push the dough to the point of no longer being usable. However, it isn't always easy to describe the chemistry, especially after the fact, of what happened to the dough from moment to moment to be able to make a clear cut diagnosis.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling us when you played around with natural starters you would intentionally try to destroy dough just to learn new things.  Thanks for the link and the whole thread.  I see what happened to Damian's dough.  I also learned from that thread and the links contained within.

I understand it isn't always easy to describe the chemistry of what happened after the fact.   

I think I am going to add a little flour to the goop in the plastic bag and mush it around a little to see what happens.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2015, 10:46:00 AM »
Since the goop smelled okay, GM unbleached flour was mixed in with the goop.  At first it was just kneaded in the bag.  I then decided to put some flour on the table, scrapped the partly kneaded goop and knead the goop/dough more.  It then was rested and then kneaded more.  It was then balled and oiled lightly and put in a small oiled plastic container.  There was too much flour used but that was okay because I just wanted to see if the goop/dough would rise again since kefir was used.  I don't know why I put the dough in the Styrofoam container with an ice pack again, when all that was wanted to see if the dough would rise.  This morning it was put out on the kitchen table to watch.  When checked on a little while ago it looks like the goop/dough is fermenting again.  The pH number didn't look too good though.

Norma


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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2015, 12:06:51 PM »
Norma,

The revenge of the goop >:D >:D.

Peter

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2015, 12:49:48 PM »
Norma,

The revenge of the goop >:D >:D.

Peter

 :-D  I will wait and see if the goop/dough will turn into a pizza.  I have to go away to run errands and am not sure whether to put the goop/dough into the Styrofoam container with an ice pack or let it sit out at room temperature.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2015, 06:18:02 PM »
The goop/kefir dough sure didn't make one of the best pizzas.  At least it could be made into a pizza.  The dough was put into the Styrofoam container with an ice pack while errands were run.  The dough was then left to sit out at room temperature for awhile after returning home.  I didn't want to open a bigger can of sauce to try to make the small pizza so a jar of pizza sauce was pick up at Aldi for .99 cents. Maybe I should have used a better can of sauce though because the sauce and cheese wanted to turn a orange color.  I cut some fresh veggies from my garden for goop/dough pizza and did use  Grande mozzarella.  Baby basil from my garden was put on the pizza after the bake.  I didn't want the stone to go as high in temperature as it did but it was quickly heated up.  Until the pizza was taken outside the temperature went up.

The dough didn't rise to double in size.  I didn't want to wait until it did. The goop/dough was dry from adding too much flour, but it could be pressed and opened into a skin.  The rim was bready and dense but there was a good sourdough taste in the rim crust.  The bottom crust didn't brown much.   

A video of taken of the goop/dough pizza partially baking but the heat from the BS got too hot for my hand to be so near.  Also didn't think about the lighting not being the best for the way the sun was.

 

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2015, 06:21:14 PM »
Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2015, 07:57:18 PM »
Norma,

After you posted your results, it occurred to me that you could have used the goop kefir milk dough as part of a new dough. This is a topic that I discussed some time ago at Reply 388 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg25670#msg25670 .

Peter

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2015, 09:02:34 PM »
Norma,

After you posted your results, it occurred to me that you could have used the goop kefir milk dough as part of a new dough. This is a topic that I discussed some time ago at Reply 388 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg25670#msg25670 .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing your post about “old” dough/scrap dough.  That is why I thought of saving the small dough ball in the first place.  I thought of incorporating in another dough this coming Monday to see what would happen.  When I forgot to take it home Tuesday night it wasn't given another thought.  I usually do incorporated old dough into batches of dough at market if there is any leftover dough balls, but then they are only cold fermented for a little over a day and frozen until the next week.  I usually incorporate the previous weeks dough balls in the last 3 minutes of the mix.  I don't think any customers can taste the difference in the crusts but I can. 

I really don't think the goop kefir milk dough would have been good enough to incorporate into a new dough.  I think it was already dead except for the milk kefir.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2015, 09:56:07 PM »
Another boardwalk style dough was made with kefir.  The dough was mixed with the flat beater first and then the spiral dough hook was used to finish the mixing.  The kefir was added to the water.  The oil was added after the flour, water, salt, kefir and sugar were mixed with the flat beater and rested for 2 minutes.  The time it took to do those steps was 12 minutes.  The dough seemed a little bit more like the regular boardwalk style doughs.  The kefir pH value, the final dough temperature and the pH of the final dough are in the photos.  Cold water out of the fridge was used.  There is a hole in the lid of the plastic container.  Enough dough for 1 dough ball was used on the expanded dough calculation tool with a bowl residue compensation.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2015, 06:59:22 PM »
The kefir dough is chugging along slowly but is fermenting a little until this evening.  At least it isn't sticky this time.

Norma


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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2015, 09:37:22 AM »
The milk kefir dough and pizza did not work out well yesterday.  The dough that was kept in the Styrofoam container did almost double in size until about 2:30 PM yesterday but there wasn't hardly any fermentation bubbles when looking at the sides or bottom of the container.  The dough ball was left at higher temperatures (about 94 degrees F) to see if the dough would ferment more.  By around 5:00 PM the kefir dough was used to make a pizza.  It could be seen when the dough ball was opened into a skin it didn't have any fermentation bubbles in the skin.  I thought to myself the kefir dough probably would not make a good pizza.  The rim didn't much of any oven spring.  The taste of the crust was very bland and almost tasted like cardboard.  Chalk this pizza up as being really bad.  There wasn't any sourdough taste in the crust but the dough did smell like a sourdough.  The rim crust was bready.  After a few bites this pizza went into the trash can.

Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2015, 09:40:15 AM »
Norma

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2015, 10:20:38 PM »
The little piece of dough was intentionally left at market to see what would happen.  Since the kefir bigger dough ball didn't show hardly any signs of fermentation bubbles on Tuesday, I was curious what would happen if the tiny kefir dough ball was left at the varying ambient temperatures at market.  The dough ball didn't overferment as badly as the one did last week.  There were still some fermentation bubbles in the dough and it wasn't as sticky as last week  I used some flour, kneaded and balled it.  I don't think there is any use in baking the dough.  It is being left at room temperatures at home.

Norma
« Last Edit: July 26, 2015, 07:57:44 AM by norma427 »

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Re: Milk Kefir again
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2015, 08:08:26 AM »
The little piece of dough wasn't going to be baked, but when Steve (Ev) mentioned a pizza party the little piece of dough had to go along to see if it could be baked into a pizza.  The dough only fermented a little while sitting out at ambient room temperatures, and was dry on the top of the dough ball (the container wasn't oiled and neither was the dough ball).  The dough pushed open okay but then wanted to tear in a few places.  This pizza wasn't meant to be.  It tasted like a sourdough pizza in the crust, but the crust was like a cracker style with no rise in the rim, and was crispy on the bottom crust.  Even in the higher temperatures of a WFO there was not enough oomph to rise the rim crust.  :-D

Norma


 

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