Author Topic: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?  (Read 164 times)

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Online jvp123

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8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« on: August 15, 2014, 11:18:21 AM »
I made two test dough balls yesterday and this morning only after about 14 hours one of my dough balls is very active.  To date I've only been using small amounts of IDY in my pizzas and this is my first attempt at incorporating a preferment.

One test is without IDY and 3% preferment and the other is 1/16 tsp IDY and 8% preferment.

The one without the IDY (less rise) is about what I am used to seeing with my non preferment pizzas previously.

My intention was to let them both sit for 48 hours at room temp (72F).

My question is:  Is the big one blowing up too much too soon?  I'm just curious is there is a right or wrong with that and how that affects the crumb.

Jeff


Offline Donjo911

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 12:43:51 PM »
I don't know if I can answer your question.  I'm thinking of what my dough balls look like in the containers and wonder how much your dough balls weigh and what the size of the containers are. That may be useful for others too in order to make a reference.
Cheers,
Don
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Online jvp123

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2014, 01:00:26 PM »
I don't know if I can answer your question.  I'm thinking of what my dough balls look like in the containers and wonder how much your dough balls weigh and what the size of the containers are. That may be useful for others too in order to make a reference.
Cheers,
Don

Good point Don.  I guess it was a bit of a silly question.  Those are 325 g dough balls in a 1.6 QT container. 

Anyway .. I don't usually get much expansion in my dough as its proofing this early .. I'll just see how it behaves when I open it up tomorrow evening. 

I've just heard people talking about "over proofing" and "blowing out" and thought perhaps that might apply to my larger one.
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2014, 01:26:55 PM »
I made two test dough balls yesterday and this morning only after about 14 hours one of my dough balls is very active.  To date I've only been using small amounts of IDY in my pizzas and this is my first attempt at incorporating a preferment.

One test is without IDY and 3% preferment and the other is 1/16 tsp IDY and 8% preferment.

The one without the IDY (less rise) is about what I am used to seeing with my non preferment pizzas previously.

My intention was to let them both sit for 48 hours at room temp (72F).

My question is:  Is the big one blowing up too much too soon?  I'm just curious is there is a right or wrong with that and how that affects the crumb.

I think "blown out" is likely going to be an huge understatement of what is about to happen to the second dough and probably the first too.

For 48 hours at 72F, you need way less than 1% preferment (assuming it's active), My guess is you have about 160x too much starter in the second (60x too much in the first) to say nothing about the additional IDY.
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Online jvp123

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2014, 01:34:40 PM »
I think "blown out" is likely going to be an huge understatement of what is about to happen to the second dough and probably the first too.

For 48 hours at 72F, you need way less than 1% preferment (assuming it's active), My guess is you have about 160x too much starter in the second (60x too much in the first) to say nothing about the additional IDY.

Thanks so much for responding Craig.  I appreciate that because I learned something which is the whole point.  I was trying to adapt some recipes I found both of which called for CF.  The preferment amounts are correct to the recipes as is the IDY in the one.  I didn't realize the room temp would ruin the dough though, but now I do.  I'l ride it out so at least I can see and taste the problem for my education and fix it on the next round.
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2014, 01:47:50 PM »
Thanks so much for responding Craig.  I appreciate that because I learned something which is the whole point.  I was trying to adapt some recipes I found both of which called for CF.  The preferment amounts are correct to the recipes as is the IDY in the one.  I didn't realize the room temp would ruin the dough though, but now I do.  I'l ride it out so at least I can see and taste the problem for my education and fix it on the next round.


There is a time-temp-quantity relationship with yeast (baker's yeast and sourdough). You can't change one without affecting at least one of the others. As you see in your experiment, increasing the temperature necessitated decreasing the starter or employing a much shorter fermentation time or a combination of both. There are other variables that come into play, but the effect of changes is largely predictable. These table work pretty well to help you find a starting point to work from:
For most sourdough cultures (including Ischia): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
For baker's yeast (IDY, ADY, CY): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982

Pizza is not bread.

Online jvp123

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2014, 02:03:25 PM »
There is a time-temp-quantity relationship with yeast (baker's yeast and sourdough). You can't change one without affecting at least one of the others. As you see in your experiment, increasing the temperature necessitated decreasing the starter or employing a much shorter fermentation time or a combination of both. There are other variables that come into play, but the effect of changes is largely predictable. These table work pretty well to help you find a starting point to work from:
For most sourdough cultures (including Ischia): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
For baker's yeast (IDY, ADY, CY): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982


Understood.  I have the two charts now for the future - thanks for taking the time to create those and especially to share them.  According to the charts my 8% dough was finished this morning and my 3% will be done in a few hours.
Looks like I'm baking today, not tomorrow.  Oh well - test mode.
Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2014, 02:08:20 PM »
Great pizza typically requires lots of experimentation, tweaking, and learning.
Pizza is not bread.

Online jvp123

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Re: 8% Ischia + 1/16 tsp IDY too much?
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 05:34:27 PM »
I just made the two test pizzas out of necessity as they were over fermented and I have plans over the next couple days.

Anyway - very interesting ...

I'll call them #1 and #2.

#1 -- 8% preferment.  60% H.  1/16 tsp. IDY.  According to calc. supposed to be 16 Hrs - actually was 32 Hrs.  KASL. -- 7:30 @ 550 on steel.
#2 -- 3% preferment.  66% H.  NO IDY.           According to calc. supposed to be 22 Hrs. - actually was 32 Hrs.  50/50 00/KAAP -- 7 @ 550 on steel.

** I tried to make them much different so I could see the contrast of the effects of the SD etc.
** I am only focusing on the crust on these pies as I just used extra cheese and sauce I had on hand (not the best).
** #1 rose a lot more during the ferment. (you can see above the initial post).

#1  I rate a 6 out of 10.  Probably my worst pie in a long time.  Too sour tasting to my liking and no leavening.  To me it tasted like a sourdough baguette.  Super thin and cracker-like.  No oven spring.

#2  I rate 8 out of 10.  (My last good IDY ones were 9s). This one didn't look much different, but it tasted much better.  Less yeast? Different flour? It had a tiny bit of an airier texture and a much more mellow sour flavor.  It wasn't a cracker like the first one.
I still think it could have a bit more oven spring.  I felt it tasted more like a NY street pie in the sense that it had a denser middle but was also a little softer -- even though I've learned most true NYs don't use SD cultures.

Bottom line .. right now I am not so so excited about my Ischia (yet?).  It provided more flavor, but perhaps too much sourdough esp in pie #1.  It did nothing in terms of leavening.  I don't really know why.  I tried to use it when it was about two hours after it was fed and it seemed pretty active.
Because I over fermented them I'll guess that may be a big part of the problem.  I certainly feel as though the lower range of 3% preferment or less may be plenty (for me) in terms of flavor.  I'll use Craig's table next time to dial in the fermentation duration and I'll seek out a better recipe.

Here are the pics.  I'm looking to understand why #1 may have tasted more sour and why both pies didn't have much leavening.  Thanks.  Jeff







« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 05:41:10 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff