Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 24182 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2013, 06:19:10 PM »
Are you asking me?
Pizza is not bread.


Offline mitchjg

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2013, 06:36:35 PM »
Are you asking me?

Craig:

Yep.  Sorry for the confusion.
It only makes a slight difference in total hydration (unless one is using very large quantities of starter), but I wanted to know how you thought about it.

- Mitch

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2013, 06:55:39 PM »
For purposes of this model, I would not include the flour and water in the culture in the overall formula. You should probably do that for purposes of making dough if have a particular hydration in mind particularly if you are using a large amount of starter or if it is very wet or dry. But in general, I think the timing given here is pretty close if you just look at uture in relation to the rest of the flour, and that the main point of the model - to give you a good guess at the starting point.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #103 on: October 07, 2013, 01:53:03 PM »
Craig,

When is the best time to make my dough with the culture, is it an hour or two after I have fed the starter whilst its still bubbling and active? Or should it be left till it calms back down then used?

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #104 on: October 07, 2013, 02:10:30 PM »
PS.

Whats does all this hydration talk mean Ive not figured this out? My starter has always been fed 70g flour along with 70ml warm water, how does this equate hydration wise??

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #105 on: October 07, 2013, 03:20:15 PM »
Craig,

When is the best time to make my dough with the culture, is it an hour or two after I have fed the starter whilst its still bubbling and active? Or should it be left till it calms back down then used?

Assuming it's good and healthy to start with, I like to feed it and then use it right after it peaks and just starts to fall - or within a few hours after. The window is pretty big. I would call it fully active at that point This is the basic assumption of the table. Realistically, it doesn't matter at what point you use it so long as you use it at about the same point every time - being consistent is the best way to get consistent, predictable results.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #106 on: October 07, 2013, 03:24:45 PM »
PS.

Whats does all this hydration talk mean Ive not figured this out? My starter has always been fed 70g flour along with 70ml warm water, how does this equate hydration wise??


Hydration could refer to either the hydration of the dough or the hydration of the starter. Your starter would be 100% hydration. The starter hydration may or may not impact the dough. Using tiny quantities like I do (1.1 - 1.7%), I don't think it matters. Using large quantities, it might impact the overall characteristics of the dough and you might need to take it into account in your formula such as is done with this dough calculator: http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. For example, if you wanted a 55% hydration dough and added 30% of the flour weight in 100% hydrated starter, you can see how the hydration of the final dough could be well over 55% unless you adjust the formula flour or water so that the final formula comes in at 55%HR.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:13:28 AM by Pete-zza »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #107 on: October 07, 2013, 03:54:18 PM »
Thanks Craig,

I think Im getting this, I will mull over it and probably have a few more questions for you once its absorbed!


Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #108 on: October 08, 2013, 07:03:41 AM »
Hydration could refer to either the hydration of the dough or the hydration of the starter. Your starter would be 100% hydration. The starter hydration may or may not impact the dough. Using tiny quantities like I do (1.1 - 1.7%), I don't think it matters. Using large quantities, it might impact the overall characteristics of the dough and you might need to take it into account in your formula such as is done with this dough calculator: http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. For example, if you wanted a 55% hydration dough and added 30% of the flour weight in 100% hydrated starter, you can see how the hydration of the final dough could be well over 55% unless you adjust the formula flour or water so that the final formula comes in at 55%HR.


Craig,

On this point would you then add only 25% of original the % of water to make the 55%.

PS. The link didnt work!

Offline deb415611

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #110 on: October 08, 2013, 08:18:26 AM »
PS. The link didnt work!
I fixed the link in Craig's post. The periods were inside of the tags instead of outside. The system software does this. The solution is to use the blue globe icon in the second row in the Reply mode. It is the first icon, to the left of the email icon.

Peter
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 08:57:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #111 on: October 08, 2013, 08:45:22 AM »
Craig,

On this point would you then add only 25% of original the % of water to make the 55%.

PS. The link didnt work!

There are several ways you could get there, but the point is that you might have to make adjustments. Also, a final dough at any given hydration may handle very differently if it includes a large amount of starter (probably feeling a lot more 'wet') as opposed to one that doesn't. I'm sure you've noticed how the viscosity of the starter decreases as the yeast and bacteria work on it breaking down the protein.

The bottom line is there is no substitute for experience. You have to get your hands dirty and see how things behave and react and learn how to make the necessary adjustments to get what you want.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #112 on: October 08, 2013, 09:13:09 AM »
Peter/Deb thanks for the fix on the link, will have to fire up the laptop to suss it out as the calculator isn't compatible with iPads.

Craig you're spot on with the fact that there is no substitute for experience, getting stuck in and making pies regularly is my aim over the autumn and winter months, unfortunately living in Scotland doesn't provide a large window of opportunity to use my WFO so I'm giving serious consideration to purchasing an Effeuno p134h electric oven to alllow more practice.

Just need to persuade the wife...

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2013, 02:26:35 PM »
I decide to go for it today and prepared my first dough using my (3 week old) starter based roughly on the work flow from you're garage recipe, went for 7.5% starter based on the PFT table as I wanted to be using it in 29 hours, Dough was a little wetter than normal probably influenced by the 49g starter as you predicted yesterday but well within manageable limits, once kneaded, rested, folded etc the dough was smooth like normal just a wee bit sticky when balling it.

I'm pretty confident this bake is going to be successful within the limits afforded by a domestic oven.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 02:54:06 PM by swatson »

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #114 on: October 15, 2013, 04:02:51 AM »
And here are the results of my efforts, this my dough after 29 hours as I'm about to open it I think I may have let it go a little to long, any comments welcome!

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #115 on: October 15, 2013, 04:04:04 AM »
Side shot!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #116 on: October 15, 2013, 06:33:13 AM »
From the bottom, it looks about like mine does when ready. It's hard to tell from the side as I think you are using a smaller container than I do.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #117 on: October 15, 2013, 07:26:46 AM »
Hi Craig,

Everything about the dough felt good I just wasn't sure if there were too many bubbles, for size comparison here are a few pics!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #118 on: October 15, 2013, 08:37:25 AM »
The containers I use are 1.5" larger diameter. As such, I see a lot less of the edge.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #119 on: October 16, 2013, 03:56:30 AM »
Hi Craig,

Thanks for the feedback. I was delighted with how the pies turned out particularly the first one after that my domestic oven loses to much heat and I dont get the same results.

Both pies are cherry tomatoes, mushroom, basil and mozzarella. I think you'll be able to tell which was the first in the oven!


 

pizzapan