Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 27527 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2013, 01:08:35 PM »
Happy it is helpful!  ;D
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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2013, 08:18:23 PM »
Craig,

I'm not into natural starters so I've managed to miss this thread until now, but just had to say really cool and interesting stuff.  This will be incredibly valuable for members looking to make the jump to natural fermentation.
-Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2013, 09:18:00 PM »
Craig,

I'm not into natural starters so I've managed to miss this thread until now, but just had to say really cool and interesting stuff.  This will be incredibly valuable for members looking to make the jump to natural fermentation.

Thanks Jeff. I hope people wil ltake advantage of it. I think it will really reduce the amount of experimentation needed to zero in on a new formula or modify the timing on an existing formula.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2013, 07:00:11 AM »
Craig, this thread is a God sent for me just starting out using cultures.....  thank you!
Paolo

Offline JD

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2013, 10:48:47 PM »
I'm currently in the process of doing a multi-temp ferment, and will post the results on Tuesday night when it's complete.

8.5% Ischia Starter, 84 hours at 45* (fridge), then pull for 12.5 hours at 65*

This should be a good test for the cold ferment (red) section. I've already tested 8.5% at 65* only, and that was spot on.

Josh

Offline Barry

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2013, 02:22:58 AM »
Hi Craig,

Your table is really very helpful, particularly with multiple stage (at different temp) fermentation. I use fresh cake yeast on most occasions. Is there a generally accepted substitution rate for activated starter. What I am asking is , "how many grams of fresh yeast is equivalent to 1% activated starter"?

It would be great for me to use a table that showed the temperature in Celsius, and the yeast as fresh yeast measured in grams.....

Thanks for the awesome info.

best wishes

Barry in Cape Town

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2013, 08:06:51 AM »
Your table is really very helpful, particularly with multiple stage (at different temp) fermentation. I use fresh cake yeast on most occasions. Is there a generally accepted substitution rate for activated starter. What I am asking is , "how many grams of fresh yeast is equivalent to 1% activated starter"?

It would be great for me to use a table that showed the temperature in Celsius, and the yeast as fresh yeast measured in grams.....

Barry, for my Ischia in the 60-70F (15.6-21.1C) range, I would say it is approximately1% culture = 0.015% IDY, 0.02% ADY, or 0.05% CY.

The farther you get from 65F, the less confident I would be with this conversion. I'm working on a chart for commercial yeast, but it might be a while.

Lastly, it would not be practical to make a chart that gave the result in grams as it would then be specific to a specific flour quantity. I guess I could do it for 1kg flour, but I think the percentages are just as easy.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2013, 08:23:33 AM »
Here is the chart w/ Celsius. Directions for using it with multiple stages can be found here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg230690.html#msg230690
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:12:07 AM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline JD

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2013, 09:04:46 AM »
TX:

Not to give you more work to do, but I have a question about your multi-ferment calculation. It seems starter % is the variable, but I would imagine people have set recipes and would rather use the same amount of starter and adjust time.  Would it be possible to make a second table where you would input a starter %, and then input your desired temperatures that automatically calulate total ferment times in stages?

Let me know if what I'm saying is confusing

Josh

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2013, 05:18:37 PM »
TX:

Not to give you more work to do, but I have a question about your multi-ferment calculation. It seems starter % is the variable, but I would imagine people have set recipes and would rather use the same amount of starter and adjust time.  Would it be possible to make a second table where you would input a starter %, and then input your desired temperatures that automatically calulate total ferment times in stages?

Let me know if what I'm saying is confusing



That would be tough because there is an infinite number of ways that the fermentation time could be divided between multiple stages. 

Is it really that difficult on inconvenient to change the starter % in a recipe? Maintaining your workflow schedule - hitting your time and temperature marks - is what matters; that is what develops flavor and consistency. I can't think of a single reason why maintaining the starter % in a formula would be preferable.

CL
Pizza is not bread.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2013, 05:23:34 PM »
If maintaining the starter % in a formula is important for some reason I'm not thinking of, the chart will give you the answer you are looking for: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg230692.html#msg230692

I can give additional examples or color if needed.

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline JD

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2013, 05:47:23 PM »
I had to postpone my pizza night from Tuesday to Wednesday, so obviously I can't adjust the Starter % and would like to know what my new 2nd stage (warm) ferment time would be since I'm cold fermenting for an additional 24 hours. That's why I presented the question for you, but you're right I can use the chart. It certainly made it much easier for me in the first place.

-JD
Josh

Offline Barry

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2013, 05:27:52 AM »
Hi Craig,

Thank you very much for the table with the Celsius temps. You are right about the "grams of yeast" - it can only be in percentages of flour.

I look forward to your chart for commercial yeast. Much appreciated.

Best wishes

Barry in Cape Town

Offline 3.1416

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2013, 10:51:02 AM »
TXCraig1,
That is a great chart! I am new to this site. I have been a sourdough baker for several years. Do you have a chart for the percent of fermentation growth per time at a specific temperature? I would like to follow your lead and keep my dough cool for some amount of time and then move it to a warmer or cooler temp for the finish. If I knew the rate of growth per temp per time then I could hazard better guesses.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2013, 11:19:21 AM »
TXCraig1,
That is a great chart! I am new to this site. I have been a sourdough baker for several years. Do you have a chart for the percent of fermentation growth per time at a specific temperature? I would like to follow your lead and keep my dough cool for some amount of time and then move it to a warmer or cooler temp for the finish. If I knew the rate of growth per temp per time then I could hazard better guesses.

Does this give you the information you need?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdGZScWx6U2lYSEtZVkJuVGJiR19NaXc#gid=0
Pizza is not bread.


Offline 3.1416

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2013, 06:43:58 PM »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2013, 07:21:16 PM »
Where have you been all my life?

John

Me or the spreadsheet?  :-[
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Offline JD

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2013, 09:33:04 PM »
Ok TX I have some interesting results to share with you.

Friday night I made a 60% hydration NY style dough using 8.5% starter. I cold fermented in the fridge at a steady 45* until this morning (approximately 108 hours) and "warm" fermented at 65* for 11 hours. My original calculation using your spreadsheet was a warm fermentation of 8.5 hours (which got me close to my original starter percentage of 8.5%) but due to reasons outside of my control I had to push it to 11.

I have a strong opinion that my dough was under-fermented. In the pictures below you'll see a shot after the 108hr cold ferment, after the additional 11 hour warm ferment (did not reball or punch dough), and the final crust shot (chicken parm pizza from leftover sunday dinner in case you were wondering :) )

After the cold ferment, you can see there wasn't much for small bubbles. After the warm, again not impressive, however I started seeing a little more life right near the end of the 11th hour. The crust shot was fairly dense with not an impressive spring.

I have a suspicion that most of the visible bubbles are actually from bacterial by-products instead of yeast, and it wasn't until the dough was moved to the 65* temperature that the yeast actually started fermenting.

For the sake of experimentation, I created two identical doughballs on Friday. Sometime this upcoming weekend I intend to do a full 24 hour 65* warm rise with the second doughball to verify if the above is true. If what I'm saying is true, then a 45 degree cold ferment at 8.5% starter basically does nothing for fermentation, however the flavor was very tasty.

I'll post back when I complete the second experiment this weekend.
Josh

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2013, 10:15:43 PM »
Friday night I made a 60% hydration NY style dough using 8.5% starter. I cold fermented in the fridge at a steady 45* until this morning (approximately 108 hours) and "warm" fermented at 65* for 11 hours. My original calculation using your spreadsheet was a warm fermentation of 8.5 hours (which got me close to my original starter percentage of 8.5%) but due to reasons outside of my control I had to push it to 11.

I have a strong opinion that my dough was under-fermented.

If your refrigerator is 45F, you have another problem - that's dangerously too warm for a fridge - it should be 38F max, and ideal is closer to 36F. If it's actually 38F, the model would have predicted 13.7%, at 36F, 15.6%. My guess is that you should have used somewhere 62% and 82% more starter than you did (given 11 hours at 65F). For 8.5 hours at 65F, you would have needed more than 2X what you used. Of course all of these figures come from the red zone, but it sounds like the might not be too far off?

CL
Pizza is not bread.


 

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