Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 21587 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2013, 11:54:45 AM »
Craig - I came across this data and thought it might be interesting for this thread:

http://www.wraithnj.com/breadpics/rise_time_table/bread_model_bwraith.htm

There are tabs at the bottom which expand on the table.

John


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2013, 01:30:34 PM »
Thank you. I will study it.
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Offline arspistorica

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2013, 12:13:31 AM »
I may be of help here.  You need to solve for other parameters as well, such as ionic strength, water activity as expressed as ionic strength, redox potential and substrate access.  I'd first get started on adding a new process-parameter:  salt and then expressing its content as ionic-strength.  I can provide that data if you cannot find it.  This would then modify the information you have already gathered from before:  inoculation percentage (and hence starting-dough pH) and temperature, both of which give you a specified generation-time.  That generation-time means nothing without the other, directly-correlative outliers sourdough microflora commonly encounter during the course of fermentation.

You'll find that water-activity has little impact on time, barely shaving generation-time by a factor of .0154% at a water-activity of .94 and by a mere .1224% at a water-activity of .99.

All this being said, this model is only predictive for cultures where Lb SF is the dominant microorganism during all fermentative conditions, which is a big assumption.  Complicating matters even more, time does not matter in order to understand fermentation.  It's merely an outcome.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:22:53 AM by arspistorica »
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Offline rrweather

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2013, 08:41:18 AM »
This thread is awesome. I can't wait to have my starters going to be able to use the chart as a guideline. One question (potentially stupid), does this chart/data specifically apply to pizza dough or just dough in general? In other words, can it be applied to breads as well? Craig, thanks for taking to time to work on this and make it available to people like me that can use all the help we can get!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2013, 10:55:23 AM »
This thread is awesome. I can't wait to have my starters going to be able to use the chart as a guideline. One question (potentially stupid), does this chart/data specifically apply to pizza dough or just dough in general? In other words, can it be applied to breads as well? Craig, thanks for taking to time to work on this and make it available to people like me that can use all the help we can get!

It should work as a starting point for most things. Sweet doughs may vary more than others.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline Trickydick

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2013, 03:03:55 PM »
TXCraig,

Thank you for your shared knowledge.  I am a pizza NooB but have had enough semi successful efforts and many many more disappointments enough to realize that I've been recklessly throwing things together hoping they'll work.   Now I can see more clearly what I've been doing wrong thanks to the information here.  One small question.  I assume you live in Texas, and wonder where you have 65°F temps for fermentation?  Do you have a cellar or some temperature controller switch on a refrigerator you use? 

Also wondering if you can point to a primer on sourdough culture maintenance and management. I find it difficult.

Thanks!

TD

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2013, 06:01:34 PM »
TXCraig,

Thank you for your shared knowledge.  I am a pizza NooB but have had enough semi successful efforts and many many more disappointments enough to realize that I've been recklessly throwing things together hoping they'll work.   Now I can see more clearly what I've been doing wrong thanks to the information here.  One small question.  I assume you live in Texas, and wonder where you have 65F temps for fermentation?  Do you have a cellar or some temperature controller switch on a refrigerator you use? 

Also wondering if you can point to a primer on sourdough culture maintenance and management. I find it difficult.

Thanks!

TD


Here is pretty much how I do everything I do: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

Specifically, how I maintain the temp is the second link on that page or here -> http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline iRobertO

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2013, 02:58:08 AM »
A question with regard to 24 hrs.. If I had a choice to do 8 hrs bulk and 16 hrs balled or vice versa, would I want to do the shorter balled version?

iRobertO

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2013, 10:22:12 AM »
A question with regard to 24 hrs.. If I had a choice to do 8 hrs bulk and 16 hrs balled or vice versa, would I want to do the shorter balled version?

iRobertO

It's personal preference. AOTBE, the longer in balls, the easier it is going to be to open. I like 24 hours. most folks would benefit from more than 24 hours in balls. Some people like less because they want a bit more elastic dough.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline breffni

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2013, 01:17:14 PM »
Hey Craig, I had a similar question (and thanks) to Everlasts:

Craig, thanks for posting this. Your generosity in sharing information continually blows me away. Per the Multiple Stage Starter Prediction Model, if you were to bulk ferment at 65F for 24 hours, then ball and ferment for another 24 hours at 65F, then proof for 3 hours at 75F, the model calls for 0.6% starter. Don't you usually recommend 1.3% for this fermentation schedule? Am I overlooking something here?

Damian


I have been using your method of approx. 1.3% starter, 60% hydration, 24h bulk ~65-66F, 24h ball 65-66F, then a couple hours around 80F and been very happy with the results.
I am probably using the Multiple Stage model incorrectly, but if plug in 48h @ 65F and 3 h @ 80F, it tells me I should only be using 0.5% starter.
Alternatively, if plug in only 48h @ 65F, it has 1.1% starter so closer to the 1.3%.
Should the last couple hours bringing the dough up to temp be ignored from the equation?

Thanks,
John
 


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #90 on: August 23, 2013, 01:34:05 PM »
Maybe - maybe not. There are too many variables to give you a definite answer. The purpose of the model is to come up with a close starting point. In many cases, a little bit of tweaking will be required.

I've found that my 1.3% culture dough is typically ready in 48h at 64-65F, and it also has a very long (8+ hour) window of usability even with the temperature coming up to 80 or so - though I like to keep it down in the mid-low 70's if possible.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline breffni

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #91 on: August 23, 2013, 01:58:01 PM »
Gotcha, thanks.
Concur on the usability window - last weekend had a few hour delay in expected bake starting time and the dough was outstanding even though sat in the 80's for a few extra hours.
Read this week about the pinhole trick in the lids, definitely doing that next as the lids keep popping off even in 65F bulk.

And is it correct to say that while using more starter for a shorter ferment (i.e. 12-24 hour dough) may result in a 'usable' dough, your experience has been the shorter ferment even with higher starter percentage does not develop the same flavor profile that a 48h dough will? (that was my experience when attempted an emergency starter dough)

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #92 on: August 23, 2013, 02:11:37 PM »
And is it correct to say that while using more starter for a shorter ferment (i.e. 12-24 hour dough) may result in a 'usable' dough, your experience has been the shorter ferment even with higher starter percentage does not develop the same flavor profile that a 48h dough will? (that was my experience when attempted an emergency starter dough)

I think this is true, AOTBE. And not just the flavor but the texture and appearance will be affected as well. 
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline texmex

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2013, 12:18:49 PM »
Great resource.   :)
Now I know rather than just guessing that I need to leave my cold ferments in the fridge quite a bit longer when I'm not using yeast in the dough.
Reesa

Offline Mmmph

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #94 on: September 16, 2013, 09:56:44 AM »
I used your chart this past week. It was spot on with my culture and workflow.

Thanks,
Sono venuto, ho visto, ho mangiato

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #95 on: September 16, 2013, 12:11:09 PM »
Thanks - yes, I've made quite a few different time/temp combinations in the 6-48 hour range and 59-79F range, and it's always very close.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #96 on: October 02, 2013, 09:26:14 AM »
Craig Ive recently started my own starter with strong white bread flour which Ive been feeding with good results for a fortnight, I now want to switch to feeding it with Caputo is this viable and what are the pros and cons?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #97 on: October 02, 2013, 09:29:45 AM »
Craig Ive recently started my own starter with strong white bread flour which Ive been feeding with good results for a fortnight, I now want to switch to feeding it with Caputo is this viable and what are the pros and cons?

Personally, I don't see any need to feed it Caputo. It's certainly not a bad choice. I don't because it's not particularly easy for me to get Caputo. My intuition is that you won't see any difference in your final dough unless perhaps you are using a high % of culture in the formula, and maybe not even then. I've always fed mine KAAP or KABF.
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline swatson

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #98 on: October 02, 2013, 10:48:56 AM »
Thanks Craig,

The main reason for feeding it Caputo is that I have a 25k bag and want to use it up before it perishes.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #99 on: October 06, 2013, 05:38:44 PM »
Denali.
No such thing as a stupid question....
All %'s of ingredients follow after the total(100%) flour weight.

Follow up question for clarity.  When taking 100% of the flour weight, the flour weight includes the weight of the flour in the starter, etc?

So, if you target 1000 grams of flour and 60% hydration, and 10% starter, then you would use:

950 g flour
550 g water
100 g starter (100% hydration)

Is that your intent?

Thanks,
Mitch