Author Topic: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model  (Read 28742 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2014, 09:21:02 PM »
Looks great.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #141 on: January 07, 2014, 12:01:43 PM »
Ditto Karl,

Great looking dough both pre- and post-bake!

John K
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Offline anverc

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #142 on: February 24, 2014, 03:09:02 PM »
I made a web-app timer utility using Craig's models.  I moved my comment about it to a new thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30444
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 02:25:39 PM by anverc »
i'm making a pizza utility app.  check it out and give suggestions! http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30444.0

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #143 on: February 25, 2014, 01:29:29 AM »
I started working on a smartphone accessable web-app using Craig's data and some reversing of the math used in the googledocs spreadsheet.

i got to the point where I have something that you can use to time your dough proofing after you've made it.  After getting this far i'm wondering if it isn't actually very useful and what might make it more useable - perhaps i can take Craig's %starter prediction and add it as a separate mode on top of this.


Here's the web-app:

http://ssqpm.makebendrink.com/

try it out on your computers and smart phones (i've tested with win7-chrome and ios-safari).  it's basically an eggtimer that does all the sourdough prediction lookups for you.  I think this is probably only useful in the cases that Craig lays out, where your proofer isn't running at the same temp that you are used to.  Or if you're like me and you don't plan ahead very well, at least you can now track what you're doing :D

this saves the data on your device.  If we end up making it useful enough I can have it back up to the cloud... and maybe we can get it added to this site. 


how to use it:
- when you first go to the site (or after you reset your data) it will ask you what starter percent you are using.
- next it will ask you to add a time stamp and temperature.  If you just mixed your dough, just click the "NOW" button, modify your temp and click Add
- you can add new timestamps in the future by clicking the Add Timestamp button
- you can modify old timestamps by clicking on them
- as an added bonus, since i'm supporting Celcius, you can mix and match your temperature readings if you want to.  it will save the last C/F selection you've made

- when you re-visit the site, it should keep your data around (uses html5 client data storage, so it requires your browser to support html5)
 - it also saves the last temp you used, in-case you never switch the temperature up much you won't have to modify that often.
Very clever/neat.  8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Tampa

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #144 on: February 25, 2014, 08:48:46 AM »
Nicely done anverc!  Thanks for sharing this and giving a nod to Craig on the screen.
Dave

Offline anverc

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #145 on: February 25, 2014, 09:39:40 AM »
Nicely done anverc!  Thanks for sharing this and giving a nod to Craig on the screen.
Dave

thanks! without all his research/data/math i wouldn't have been able to make this.  I don't understand the math at all, i'm just blindly using it (even to the extent that some of my variable names make no sense).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 02:27:48 PM by anverc »
i'm making a pizza utility app.  check it out and give suggestions! http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30444.0

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #146 on: February 25, 2014, 02:18:12 PM »
should i move this to a new thread? i don't want to steal Craig's thread, it's kinda burried here, and i'd like to have somewhere where people can post ideas to build this thing up.
anverc,

I think that would be a good idea. Rather than try to carve out pieces of this thread, you might just start a new thread even if some repetition of old material is needed.

Peter

Offline Adrian

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #147 on: March 28, 2014, 01:24:12 AM »
Hi TXCraig1,

you did an amazing job! In bread making, there are very little breads that are directly (0 step) built. But for pizza it really seems to be the way to go. On the other hand, adding 20% or more of a recently refreshed starter can already be seen as 1 step built.

From my experience, the relation between your numbers seems to be very accurate, I'm amazed. For times under 12 hours I think I just have to apply a constant factor of 0.8 when having a a very active starter. I'm not sure if this holds for longer times (where I don't have much experience). When reviving old starters, it seems to be non linear (spores waking up?); when comparing just one feeding cycle of a recently "captured" starter to an heavily used one, it seems more linear.
This calls for tests. (And me trying to understand the exact model behind you calculation).


I've seen the author where parts of your model is based on his research also is co-author of the ("the") German compendium about sourdough :)
I know, for pizza making it is not an issue, but it'd be great to have the hydration modelled in as well for bread making. If I just had more time ;)

>>> 1/6/13 Here is a link to a spreadsheet that automates the calculation of starter% given multiple fermentation stages: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdGZScWx6U2lYSEtZVkJuVGJiR19NaXc#gid=0 more details here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.msg230734.html#msg230734

One thing I've noticed: When "calculating" centigrade, G5 has a fixed number. I think it should be:
=(D5-32)*5/9

Thanks a lot for you effort generating this table and making it public!
Adrian

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #148 on: March 29, 2014, 03:05:26 AM »
I fixed the spreadsheet formula. Thanks for pointing it out.

I hope you find it helpful. It's not intended to be the be-all-end-all, but rather to give people a good place to start from which can be quite a daunting challenge for anyone departing from a recipe the first few times. Same with the bakers yeast model here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg285982#msg285982

CL
Pizza is not bread.

Offline phokingood

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #149 on: May 06, 2014, 02:48:09 PM »
Thanks for all of the amazing information in this thread.  I've been cooking Neapolitan Style pizzas for the last three years and this is my first attempt at using the culture.  I was getting a decent product before but am excited to see the results.

Much thanks to TXCraig1!


Offline biondanonima

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2014, 02:39:23 PM »
Thank you all SO much for this incredibly brilliant thread.  I have been winging it with my levain culture for quite some time and getting decent results, but this will really help me pinpoint just what I need to do to attain perfection!

Offline Donjo911

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #151 on: July 21, 2014, 03:03:22 PM »
This chart along with a method and tools to control the temperature provided for a absolutely predictable outcome.

As a novice, I would have continued to make guesses at dough readiness and time to bake with pallatable results but not great results.  Discussed throughout this and other threads is the subject of why one may get better feeling and tasting dough from a warm vs. cold ferment.  After about two years of making dough using refridgerated ferments with continual tweaks yet never really getting dough that opened easily, maintained shape, and baked to what I was looking to achieve consistently.

Without the data to create dough with the correct percentage of starter and ability to control the temperature of dough fermentation over a specified time, makes using sourdough starter something you can only do if you had the luxury of watching your dough and then baking at the optimal time for the dough - not for you/your guests.  It's a significant time saver and provides one with confidence to be able to make dough on a schedule with almost guaranteed results.

Evidence is not only just the good (all the above) but the predictable bad too:  Knowing when the dough will be overproofed or collapse.  Cause and effect  I made more dough than I needed. It overproofed on schedule. The last few days of experiments proved all of this to me.  I hope others read all of the threads on this topic and consider non-refridgerated cultured yeast/SD dough as a real obtainable option with only a little effort - thanks to Craig.

Thanks Craig,
Cheers,
Don


Some of the pizza's made with this dough are here:  Re: Using beer in your pizza dough  Reply 921
I have done wrong.. but what I did, I thought needed to be done.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2014, 03:24:35 PM »
I'm happy to hear it is working well for you!
Pizza is not bread.

Offline trixaddict

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #153 on: September 27, 2014, 02:21:18 PM »
Craig,
First, I'll be honest and say that I have not followed the predictive model to the letter. Had I followed the spreadsheet to the letter, it was suggesting that I use 3.0% starter for the following rates of ferment: 36 hours at 58 degrees, 6 hours at 64 degrees, and 30 hours at 55 degrees.

I only had 1.7% starter in my dough with 62% hydration and 2.8% salt using Caputo blue. I have very large bubbles and more than doubled in size. 1st thing I'm doing is getting larger containers, but did I miss something? Seems like the dough ought not to have blown up so much? It is a less than a month old ischia culture.

Thank you,
Tim
Slice of life
Tim

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #154 on: September 27, 2014, 02:56:00 PM »
How are you controlling the temperature. That fermentation schedule seem a bit random. How did it come about?

Pizza is not bread.

Offline trixaddict

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #155 on: September 27, 2014, 06:07:28 PM »
You're right. I have a half gallon of ice that keeps my cooler at 58 degrees for 30 hours reliably. After that, it will rise to 64 degrees in 6 hours. This was unintentional.

The extensibility of the dough was too much. The dough was easy to tear. Super flavor but difficult to work with. I'm going to chalk this up to further hands on learning.

I wanted to experiment with an extra day ferment to see what the difference would be. I was surprised the calculator called for more starter.

Tim
Slice of life
Tim

Offline chrisf

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #156 on: October 17, 2014, 11:38:13 AM »
Craig,

Thanks much for the chart. I've been using it the past couple of weeks and it really allowed me to control the process much better. I used to be at the mercy of my starter but now I'm in command  >:D

Understanding the relationships and how to use them has freed me up and given me confidence. Yesterday I made the best loaf of bread I've ever made and was totally confident in the time it took to fully ferment. Tonight I will be making pizza from dough I mixed yesterday morning when I mixed the bread dough. It's for a party and I'm confident it will turn out good.
chris

Offline Gluten4punishment

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #157 on: November 02, 2014, 08:32:26 AM »
Thanks Craig, this chart is awesome.  How did you figure all of that out?  It seems very accurate, yesterday I made 2 balls in the morning and used the chart. 

Only problem I found was I didn't account for the extra water in the starter and it came out wetter than I like, it was 15% starter.

Here is my recipe
200g KAAP
200g KABF
1t salt
15% active fed starter
5% olive oil
57% water

I wanted a 62% hydration but I think it came out more like 67% due to the 60g of starter
I balled them and placed in pantry (72deg) for 11 hours and they more than doubled right on time.

Now they are in the fridge and will take out and open them up later, will add photos when done.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #158 on: November 02, 2014, 09:25:12 AM »
Thanks Craig, this chart is awesome.  How did you figure all of that out?

Basically, it's my and a couple other folks test data extrapolated with the results published in Gänzle et al. (1998) http://aem.asm.org/content/64/7/2616.full.pdf
Pizza is not bread.

Offline David Esq.

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Re: Sourdough starter quantity predictive model
« Reply #159 on: November 02, 2014, 12:03:25 PM »
There is an app for all of this. I posted a thread about it last week. Would be curious for Craig's take on it if he has an iPhone.