Author Topic: Mad Stretching Skills  (Read 12127 times)

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2013, 10:09:29 AM »
Haha.

Peter obviously covered a lot of ground with his guess but I think everyone at least mentioned something that was similar to what I do... hmmmmmm

Who do you think was closest Scott?
more than one day ferment...
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2013, 11:57:12 AM »
Who do you think was closest Scott?

The hydration was actually 63%, I believe, favoring Peter and Norma, but I think Peter's reference to minimal kneading gave him the edge.



Offline Paul-Brighton

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2013, 12:36:08 PM »
My dough now is between 65-67% hydrated.
Prizes coming from the UK guys! :-)
Please send your addresses via PM.

Offline Paul-Brighton

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2013, 03:19:06 AM »
Last nights supper. 3 pigs with chilli. Really hit the spot this did.

Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2013, 11:53:31 PM »
Hey Guys,

I do a lot of reading, but not enough posting.  I started in the Neapolitan section, but have moved through Sicilian, and now NY style.  I just wanted to say that you guys are all great!  There is so much information on these forums, that it's mind boggling sometimes.  I really enjoy reading through all your posts.  I am going to start working on posting more myself (I still feel like a newbie).  Paul, I am very interested in how your able to stretch that dough so thin.  I am wondering if you have a higher salt content, as I've heard more salt will allow you to stretch the dough out larger and thinner.  I am a big fan of high hydration and limited kneading, as I do not currently own a mixer.  I would be interested in your recipe, as I believe the stretching is not just a matter of handling the dough, but how it's prepared.  Also does authentic NY style pizza include eggs? Paul, would you be willing to sell me a bottle of your hot sauce?  I'd love to try it. 

Thanks guys!

~Craig

Offline Paul-Brighton

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2013, 06:58:03 AM »
Salt is 2%.
Of course you can buy my hot sauce. Whats your location?  ;D

scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2013, 08:37:30 AM »
Craig, the salt in acrobatic dough, the kind you see in competitions, is a different animal than the salt in regular dough. In that instance, the inedibly high salt content makes it easier to spin/stretch without tearing.  For regular NY style pizza, though, salt is predominantly just for flavor and plays no role in stretchability.

Stretching boils down to 3 things.

1. A properly formulated and well fermented dough.  If you're aware of the protein content of the flour, use the right amount of water for that protein level, knead the dough the right amount of time (not too much, not too little), and are aware of your yeast activity and the factors that increase it and decrease it so that the dough can be ready when you need it... you will have a dough that will practically stretch itself.

2. Good stretching practices.  Pressing the dough out with your fingertips, leaving a little extra mound in the middle, forming the rim, stretching the edge, knuckling stretching and avoiding the center- if you do each of these right, it makes a really thin stretch far easier.

3. Practice.  There's a feel for stretching dough that can't be taught.  You just have to stretch a lot of pizzas and you pick it up.  By the time you hit 20 pies, I think you'll start to recognize the hand movements that stretch the dough thin, but not too thin. If you can open a pizzeria and make thousands of pizzas like Paul has, that helps  ;D

Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #57 on: January 26, 2013, 11:08:23 PM »
Paul,

Sent you a message.  What type of mixing are you using Paul?  I would like to buy a mixer eventually, but can't decide on what I should get.  I would like to make pizza, bread, bake goods, etc.  Any suggestions on what I should choose.

Scott,

Some real good advice.  I will have to work on my kneeding to make sure it's not to much.  Is this your latest recipe here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.60.html ?  Also how much do you think I should have to pay for a 17" steel plate nowadays?  I currently have a 3/4 inch piece of soap stone and several pizza stones, but have never tried steel yet.  Do you just ask for A32 steel plate, or something more specific?  I'll post some pictures for you guys as soon as I get some pies going.  When I put pies in my fridge, they don't seem to rise much, maybe it's just not noticeable. 

Thanks Guys,


Offline Chaze215

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2013, 10:09:39 AM »
  Also how much do you think I should have to pay for a 17" steel plate nowadays?  I currently have a 3/4 inch piece of soap stone and several pizza stones, but have never tried steel yet.  Do you just ask for A32 steel plate, or something more specific? 

Craig, here is a link http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22834.msg233252.html#msg233252 to a thread that I started. Within it, you will see that I just got a 17 x 17 x 1/2 A36 steel plate. I did not pay for the plate, but I do know that the guy I got it from charges $90. I know some people here have gotten it for much cheaper ($40-$50) though. I have to say, the plate has very clean surfaces and smooth edges (which is not always the case). You will also find the recipe that I used for my first bake on this steel plate which you can see the results here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23065.msg233808.html#msg233808
I will answer any questions you may have, but I will leave all the technical questions for scott. He has helped me tremendously with this whole process.

Chaz
Chaz


scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2013, 07:14:22 PM »
Scott,

Some real good advice.  I will have to work on my kneeding to make sure it's not to much.  Is this your latest recipe here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.60.html ?  Also how much do you think I should have to pay for a 17" steel plate nowadays?  I currently have a 3/4 inch piece of soap stone and several pizza stones, but have never tried steel yet.

Craig, yes, that's my most recent recipe. There's an excellent chance, if your oven gets hot enough, that soapstone will work perfectly.  Is your oven gas or electric? If gas, is the broiler in the main compartment or in a separate drawer?  Convection?  Peak temp on the dial? Peak temp measured with an infrared thermometer?

Offline Paul-Brighton

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2013, 08:22:15 AM »
Craig,  I use a spiral mixer. The only thing that ever gets mixed in it though is pizza dough.  I make my own pastries/breads and cakes etc but that is all mixed by hand. Hope that helps dude.

Paul

Paul,

Sent you a message.  What type of mixing are you using Paul?  I would like to buy a mixer eventually, but can't decide on what I should get.  I would like to make pizza, bread, bake goods, etc.  Any suggestions on what I should choose.

Scott,

Some real good advice.  I will have to work on my kneeding to make sure it's not to much.  Is this your latest recipe here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.60.html ?  Also how much do you think I should have to pay for a 17" steel plate nowadays?  I currently have a 3/4 inch piece of soap stone and several pizza stones, but have never tried steel yet.  Do you just ask for A32 steel plate, or something more specific?  I'll post some pictures for you guys as soon as I get some pies going.  When I put pies in my fridge, they don't seem to rise much, maybe it's just not noticeable. 

Thanks Guys,



Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2013, 04:11:47 PM »
Hey Paul,

Thanks for the mixer info.  How long are you fermenting your dough?  Are you bulk rising it for a while at room temp in a fridge and then balling it, or are you balling it right away and then putting in the fridge for 2-3 days? Also if you ferment for less time, does it not stretch as well?  I'm also wondering if the King Author Bread flour is good enough to use, as it is available everywhere near me.  Their website lists the flour as 12.7% protein, but it's unbromated.  I'm currently looking into a cash and carry distributor for flour and cheese, but they have yet to mail me out their catalog :(.

Scott,

Here are the pictures of my soap stone and oven. My oven is very basic.  It's electric, and only goes up to 500F, and has no convection.  I did measure 572 on the soap stone surface after 2 hours, but it drops quickly with the door open.  Since I currently rent my place, I have not attempted to bypass any electrical safety's with the oven.  I bought the soap stone while I was attempting Neapolitan style pizza.  I was unable to reach the high temperatures needed for high hydration dough, plus the Caputo 00 flour does not seem to brown below 600F.  I eventually built a Little black egg (LBE), which has worked out great for the most part.  Can you explain the real difference between Soap, Pizza stone, and steel? 

Thanks for the help guys,

~Craig

scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2013, 05:01:42 PM »
Craig, great photos.  I like the captions ;D

I'm encouraged that your oven can reach 570, but, I hate to say it, from the dark color of the stone, I don't think your soapstone tile is the kind of soapstone that's ideal for baking. The whiter the stone, the more talc it contains, the better it is for baking. The fact that it's taking so long to reach 570 is another sign that it could be a poor conductor as well.

You can certainly try it and see how fast of a bake time you can get out of it, but I'm not all that hopeful for this tile.  Don't pull the trigger yet, but I'd do some preliminary shopping for steel.

Hearth materials are about conductivity and thermal mass. The conductivity is the rate at which they transfer heat and the thermal mass is the amount of heat that they can store.  At the same temperature, two materials of different conductivities will bake the pizza at different rates. High conductivity materials (like steel, and to a lesser extent, soapstone) are a way of making a 550 oven bake a pizza in the same time frame as a 625 oven or even a 650. These materials let you bake fast pizza without messing with your oven.

You can definitely get Paul's pizza out of an LBE, but it takes a lot of tweaking to dial in the deflection right. I think your initial inclination towards steel is a good one.  Bake a pie or two with the soapstone, but keep steel in the back of your mind if that can't break a 5 minute bake time with a two hour pre-heat.

While not perfectly ideal, KABF will work pretty well for this pizza. Paul, being in the UK, is using an unbromated flour which is most likely very similar to KABF.  Until you can deal with a distributor, stick to that.

Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2013, 04:14:37 PM »
Hey Guys,

The soap stone is probably to dark.  It does take a while to heat, but once heated it holds heat for a very long time.  I was worried about cracking, so I went with a stone on the darker side.  I haven't started my search for Steel yet, but I think eventually I'll do it.  I do like being able to test different materials out in the oven :).  Ok, so I made some NY style dough using Scott's recipe last night.  The only thing I changed was the salt, which I upped to 2% or 17.1grams.  I have attached pictures below.  What do you think about the consistency of the dough?  I kneaded it for ~3 min, let it rest for 8 min, and then balled evenly around 477grams I believe (maybe less).  I will take pictures of them tonight, and post them tomorrow.

Kneading technique I am using:

http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough.html

Balling Technique (Combination of Bruno and Antica Pizzeria Da Michele)
(Towards end of video)


Thanks for all the input,

~Craig

EDIT (4/17/15): Updated the Gourmet/Bertinet video link

scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2013, 04:48:39 PM »
It's a bit counter intuitive, but the white veins (talc) in soapstone make it more durable, not less.

That dough ball looks good, Craig. I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2013, 04:54:34 PM »
Me too... you can tell he took great care to not over handle it.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2013, 12:54:25 AM »
Alright guys, here are some more pictures for you.

So last night I took the dough out of the fridge and proceeded to re-ball it right away.  I'm not sure if I should have let the dough temperature rise to a certain temp before re-balling or not.  It was pretty hard to work as it was still very cold.  Also the dough in my larger container seemed a little dry.  It may be that the container is not meant for storing pizza dough...who knows. Please let me know what you think. Should I have been making pizza tonight, or waiting longer? 

Thanks guys!!



Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #67 on: February 03, 2013, 12:47:45 AM »
Alright Guys,

I made two pies, one Friday and one Saturday.  I tried to take some video for you guys of my pizza making process, but the video didn't come out like I wanted it to.  Instead I have some pictures of the BBQ pulled pork pie I made Saturday.  The pizza had pulled pork (Homemade), red onions, BBQ Sauce, banana peppers, and Grande mozzarella cheese on it.  My Fiance' and I were starving, so instead of waiting for the soap stone to reach 550+F, I proceeded to bake the pie at around 500F.  This caused the underside to come out more like a stone baked pie, instead of a steel or high temp Neapolitan. The cheese pizza I cooked the night before at around 560F had a much better underside char then this one.  I hope you enjoy the pictures.  Let me know what you guys think.

Enjoy!

~Craig


Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2013, 12:48:41 AM »
Additional pictures for you all!

~Craig

scott123

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #69 on: February 03, 2013, 06:15:34 PM »
That pulled pork looks pretty darn tasty, Craig.

It's too bad about hunger preventing you from getting a full pre-heat. It turned out beautifully, but, if you could have done it at 560... man oh man. Next time, have some apps on hand to tide you over.  Anything you have to do to get to 560, do it  ;D

Offline Paul-Brighton

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2013, 06:37:04 AM »
Another pizza  ;D

Offline Craiggy83

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Re: Mad Stretching Skills
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2013, 01:58:40 PM »
Not bad Paul, I wish I could see the picture a little better.  I am a big fan of margherita pizzas.  Most of the Neapolitan style pies I make this way.  Could you take some pictures of the underside of your pizzas?  I'd like to see how yours come out in a real pizza oven.  Also what are some of your favorite pies to make?  I probably should be taking it easy on the pizza making, as I have an allergy to milk  ;D lol. It's a bad hobby to have when you have an allergy to it.  Hey Scott, how would 3/8" steel compare to 1/2"?  I am planning on getting a piece of steel, and was thinking 3/8" may be a good balance between 1/4 and 1/2".  What do you think?

Take it easy guys,

~Craig