First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid

[jonathan.copeland]

Hello all,

I'm opening up a Tuscan Trattoria as executive chef in a few months. We will have a wood-fired oven (valoriani) in which pizza as well as other dishes will emerge. My hopes are to cook the pizza at around 650 degrees for about 3 minutes, maybe a tick longer. No extreme flame.

I have experience cooking pizza (spent two years at Franny's in Brookyn, NY and one year developing a pizza program at Palena Restaurant in Washington, DC).

My first attempt uses 60% Guistos 00 pizza flour and 40% Guistos High Protein 00 flour; 67% hydration, yeast and salt. one day in the fridge at bulk, one day in the fridge in balls.

It came out good for a first attempt. It had the crispness I wanted. Perhaps a bit too thick. And perhaps a bit too tough.

I'd love some feedback and perhaps reasons for the toughness.

My goal: crisp exterior, soft chew interior. Almost reminiscent of a good pizzeria from back in the day. But cooked in a wood fired oven.

[scott123]

Kneading time? What's the protein percentage for those flours?

[jonathan.copeland]

Knead by hand until a shaggy mass; let sit for 20 minutes then folded and kneaded with palm for a minute or so, then rest for 10 minutes and kneaded for another 30 seconds.

I can't find the protein contents online.

[scott123]

It doesn't seem like enough kneading to contribute to toughness and I also doubt that the combination of those two flours equals anything close to 14%, so it's not an excessive protein issue.

How did the dough feel on the stretch? Was it especially slack?  If this flour mix is in the 11-13% protein realm, then 67% might be a bit high.  It can be a bit counter intuitive but I've found as you go into more extreme hydrations, the crust can get tougher.

The Guistos are unmalted, correct?  I have a theory that part of the reason why Caputo tends to be a bit tough at 3 minutes is it's lack of malt/lack of protein degrading enzyme activity. For NY, even in the 3+ minute realm, I think you should be thinking about a malted flour- if Guisto's isn't malted.

Beyond the flour selection, thickness factor can go a long way in dictating perceived tenderness.  I would start by decreasing the thickness factor, seeing how the texture turns out, and then, if it's still a bit too tough, then I might think about lowering the hydration.

Nice microblisters on the undercrust.

[jonathan.copeland]

The dough actually felt really nice when stretching. slightly more elastic than the dough at Franny's (which was all King Arthur AP flour).

Perhaps the water was too high, and the thickness could have played a role. I want a puffy cornice, but thinner middle. When Guisto's gets back to me I will relay the protein contents.

Do you think having all 00 flour (eventhough some was high protein and some wasn't) could have played a role?

Thanks

[scott123]

If the dough had any visible elasticity during the stretch, then I don't think it's an issue with the hydration.

How long are you tempering the dough for?  What kind of container are you using?  When you remove the dough ball from the container, you're able to do it without mangling it, right? No re-balls/folds within 6 hours of stretching the skins, correct?

I do think the 00 flour played a role, in that I believe it was unmalted. For NY style, malted flour provides critical protein degrading tenderizing via enzyme activity.

[jonathan.copeland]

I like the idea of malted flour.

Dough was tempered for 90 minutes at least, very easy to remove from lightly sprayed tupperware containers. No reshaping.

[scott123]

I think we've covered all the usual culprits relating to toughness.  My money is on the flour.

Between the WFO, 3 minute bake time and desire for crispness, you're in a pretty coal-ish territory, imo.  Beyond the malted flour, I would take a page out of the Franke Pepe playbook and try a bromated flour as well.

Frank Pepe is basically a malted bromated medium high gluten flour, which is basically Franny's KAAP + the volume enhancing effects of bromate.

[jonathan.copeland]

I figured I was in the old coalish territory. I'd prefer to stay away from bromated flour.

Is my thread in the right place? I wasn't sure if it should go in NY or Neapolitan.

[scott123]

What's wrong with bromate? 

If you want a solid malted unbromated flour, you might want to take a look at Bay State Milling. Pendleton would be a great option, but I think you'd have a hard time procuring it on the East coast.  You seem like you were pretty content with KAAP at Franny's but I don't think you need to spend that kind of money on flour.

[shuboyje]

Are you particularly attached to the Neapolitan style topping?  For the coal oven style you are starting to lean toward I personally have had my best results topping Totonno's style.  A low moisture mozz applied in slices, sauce around the perimeter then across the pie in stripes.  It seems to yield that wonderful uniform orange goodness that really elevates this style to the next level in my book.  I've never achieved that topped sauce first, or with fresh mozz.

PS:  I also cook mine in a wood fired oven.

[shuboyje]

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18455.msg179499.html#msg179499

As an example, the first pie you see in that thread is sauce first, the second is cheese first.  All else was as identical as could be expected considering the separation of time.

[jonathan.copeland]

I'm not tied to any specific topping. I was really just attempting to work on the dough.

your pies look great. thanks fo the advice.

[jonathan.copeland]

Kneading time? What's the protein percentage for those flours?

00 organic is 10-10.5%
00 high protein is 12%

what do you think? need more protein?

[Chicago Bob]

Pizza looks great Jonathan.
What would the addition of a 'lil oil in this dough mix do?
Bob

[widespreadpizza]

Something else to think about,  cold bulk is almost never a good idea,  especially in larger masses.  I have never had good luck shaping balls from a cold mass of dough without letting it warm all the way.  Adjust your yeast to bulk in the time you need it to at room temp,  then ball,  then fridge IMO.  Also,  Sir Galahad makes a very nice pizza dough,  and at the end of the day,  is not that expensive,  certainly the guisots is much more...  My 2c  -marc

[jonathan.copeland]

Thanks fo the tip on the sir galahad. What is the name on the flour?

I'm using the guisto's because its a free sample.

as for the cold bulk, I'd love to do it at 50 or 60 degrees; but don't have that ability. As someone who spent a year baking bread in a bakery and also doing cold bulk at franny's, I don't have a problem with it. It's not ideal, but it does contribute to the flavor for sure.

[Pete-zza]

Thanks for the tip on the sir galahad. What is the name on the flour?

See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21461.msg216640/topicseen.html#msg216640.

Peter

[jonathan.copeland]

thank you.

[jonathan.copeland]

2nd round of dough, following a bit of advice from Scott. I switched out the OO high protein with the KABF (it contains malt). So its 60/40 Guistos 00/KABF.

I think the inside was more pillowy soft, while the outside was crisp. They all cooked at 650-700 for about 3-3:30 seconds.

Again, the saucing and cheese are not what I'm concentrating on. I'm just attempting to nail the crust. A crisp, brownish hued exterior with a chewy, soft and pillowy inside. A light pizza that is not Neapolitan, but not A NY slice.

I think I can benefit from a half hour to hour more of proofing once removed from fridge, as well as a thinner stretch.

I will do round 3 Wednesday, same dough, but longer proof at room temp and the thinner stretch.

Opinions and advice desired. Thanks.