Author Topic: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid  (Read 5213 times)

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Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2013, 09:31:11 PM »
I'm not up to date on the thickness factor, but the dough ball weight is 270 grams. I rolled them out to about 11.5".

Still toying with the stretching of the dough and the ball size, and am concentrating on the flavor of the dough. I hear you about thickness, but I don't think the photo is doing it justice. The pizzas on test day three are quite thin. Not franny's thin, but pretty darn thin.


scott123

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2013, 09:49:01 PM »
270g rolled out to 11.5" is a thickness factor of .09.

A lot of pizzerias around the nation will put out .09 and .1 thickness factor pies, call it 'NY style' and be highly profitable, but when you get into Neo-NY coal or wfo places, you're not going to find anything that thick. This is your place/your pizza and you can do whatever makes you and your customers happy, but I'm with Jeff on this one.

If you were doing a NY style (or NY style inspired) pie, then I'd say nothing, but there's something about a Neo-NY pizza that doesn't lend itself well to thicker crusts.

Offline Pauley

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 08:34:32 AM »
jonathon, pies look great!

If you don't mind sharing, what are you baker's % on your dough?

Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2013, 09:23:49 AM »
Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it.

Scott or Jeff, due you have a link for the thickness factor formula? And what thickness should I be shooting for for Neo-Ny pies?

Pauley:
100% flour: 60% giustos 00 pizza flour; 40% kIng Arthur bread flour
67% water
2.5% salt
.3% IDY

**** one batch of dough had 2%olive oil

24 hours in bulk; 24 hours balled. 3-4 hours room temp

scott123

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2013, 09:41:09 PM »
Jonathan, here's the link for the dough calculator.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

This will allow you to formulate based on thickness factor.

As I said before, this can be subjective, but I feel that Neo-NY should be in the .075 realm.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2013, 09:50:00 PM by scott123 »

Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 11:24:49 PM »
I really appreciate your critiques and criticism.

What's your opinion on cheeses used and sauce (uncooked vs. cooked) for the Neo-Ny pizza?

scott123

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2013, 01:52:40 AM »
Jonathan, in order to give you my thoughts on cheese, I need to provide you with a little background.

My coal/neo-ny journey has been pretty circuitous.   I grew up eating NY style and have always had a heavy bias towards it. Between the use of fresh mozz- which I never found as flavorful as aged, the lack of quality control from coal ovens, and lackluster experiences at Totonno's, Lombardi's and John's, not only had I pretty much written it off, I was pretty happy about writing it off because it made my life simpler.  Up until 6 months ago, I probably would have either ignored this thread or tried to talk you into making something more NYish.

And then I had Pepe's- and that turned my world upside down. With my first bite, I understood coal.  As much grief as I've given Reinhart for his inauthentic recipes and lack of cultural awareness, his praise for Pepe's in AP is right on the money. Pepe's is a notch better than anything that I've had in this area, and this was on a day when the cheese was off it's game and the rim was so incinerated, I couldn't eat it. But the non rim area.  Oh man oh man oh man. My best descriptor is 'quaffable.'  You start eating, you're happy, then, before you know it, it's gone and you're saying "what happened? I want more."

So, cheese :)  I've seen bake time numbers for Pepe's that range from 3-7 (coal ovens tend to be all over the map), so we could probably have a lengthy discussion as to whether or not Pepe's qualifies as neo-ny, but, if that pie was 3 minutes and you could produce something similar (perhaps with a crust that isn't incinerated), you would be an award winning, very wealthy man. And the cheese on this pie was... drum roll please  ;D

Aged brick/grande clone.  Bear in mind, my thoughts on coal/neo-ny have evolved/are evolving, but I am still incredibly biased when it comes to fior di latte on anything but Neapolitan. I've spent a lot of time trying to make the perfect pizza dough, but very few things in this world can touch the buttery flavor and smell given off by a quality Grande clone. If I could wear it as cologne I would ;D You just don't get that depth of flavor and richness from fior di latte.

Speaking of evolving thoughts, 4 years ago I had nice things to say about private label supermarket cheese. Man, was I wrong. Cheese has seasonal fluctuations, so, on rare occasions, you might find a private label cheese that's excellent, but my days of recommending supermarket cheese are long gone.  A lot of home bakers have no choice but to go the supermarket route, and there are ways to spruce up inferior cheese (such as adding fat to it), but I now know the difference and that difference is substantial.  Within the last year, I've also become aware of the differences between food service brands.  I used to say 'Grande clones,' but now I say 'quality grande clones,' because not all grande clones are of comparable quality. Even Grande has had it's issues.

I'm not just recommending aged brick, I'm doing a little aged brick dance :)  As far as which aged brick... well... lately, I've heard one or two stories of Grande having quality control issues.  Same with Polly-O food service. I would try both, though, as when they're at the top of their game, nothing can touch them.

And, just for the record, coal/neo-ny places do fresh and aged, so there really is no precedent as to which is more popular for the style.

The sauce for Neo should be a quality San Marzano canned tomato hand blended gently.  For NY, it can be San Marzano- again, only if it's of good quality, but it's far more frequently a quality California tomato, again hand blended, lightly sweetened with either oregano and/or a tiny amount of fresh basil and sometimes some garlic powder or fresh garlic.  The oregano can go in the sauce or tossed on the pie prior to baking- I'm still deciding which I prefer.  I should also note that Pepe's, like other New Haven pizzerias, was oregano-less. While I have gone into great lengths nailing Best Pizza (Brooklyn) for their omission of oregano, I didn't miss the oregano on Pepe's.  I think a big part of not missing the oregano was being wowed by the romano, which I'm trying to incorporate into my own pies, with, so far, mixed results (I think my romano is too expensive/too overpowering).

The key with sauce is simplicity.  If you've got a good tomato, you really shouldn't need much more.  Everything should augment the tomato.  If you can taste an ingredient other than tomato (such as garlic), you've used too much.

Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2013, 05:37:31 PM »
So the restaurant has opened up finally. We are 2 months in, and after doing some tweaking to the dough due to weather and other factors, I now have a finished product.

The pies are served un-cut, with pizza shears. They are baked in a wood-fired oven at about 725 degrees for 3-3:30 minutes.

The picture below is of a pie about to go on the menu full time: Artichoke, Nostraliana Olive, Tomato and Smoked Mozzarella. A little sliced garlic, red chili flake and some low-moisture mozzarella to boot. When it comes out of the oven it's finished with grana padano, olive oil and sea salt, with a chiffonade of basil to boot.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2013, 05:46:40 PM »
Looks great!

EDIT: maybe I missed it, but where is your place located, and what is it called?


Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2013, 05:55:07 PM »
It's called Ghibellina. The food is traditional Tuscan fare, with the addition of a pizza oven. Though my pizzas aren't prototypical Neapolitan. The restaurant is in the Logan Circle area of Washington, DC.

Thanks!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2013, 06:12:37 PM »
It's called Ghibellina. The food is traditional Tuscan fare, with the addition of a pizza oven. Though my pizzas aren't prototypical Neapolitan. The restaurant is in the Logan Circle area of Washington, DC.

Thanks!
Small world...I was just driving around in that area 2 months ago. My gf and I stay down the street at the Washington Hilton now a couple times a year(visit her relatives). I will be sure to stop in next trip, I like that area. Good luck with your new place Jonathan!  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2013, 06:16:42 PM »
Please do let me know when you come. And Thank you very much. I am not an owner. Just the executive chef. But it has been a lot of fun and a lot of work. The area these days is popping. Lots of new restaurants.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2013, 09:39:48 PM »
This is a very interesting thread to me because I like the idea of nea/ny pies like jon has finally achieved. What did you come up with as a final dough formula? Did you stick with the formula and work flow in your reply on January 11th? I currently blend All Trumps and ConAgra BF and like the results that I get in my home oven on a steel plate. I wonder how this same blend would work in a wfo at temps of 650-700  ???
Chaz

Offline pizzaneer

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2013, 09:40:42 AM »
Information regarding specific dough formulation for his employer's business may not be something JC is able to share.

There are enough clues in this thread, and enough tips and pointers from others, that an informed guess could be made at a formulation draft.  Like JC said, fine-tuning a dough recipe is dependent on environmental factors that are particular to a site.  Your mileage WILL vary.

Congrats on such great-looking pies, Jon!  I'm sure they are just as tasty as pretty, and I will be sure to visit your location if I can.
I'd rather eat one good meal a day than 3 squares of garbage.

Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2013, 12:43:22 PM »
My formulation is:
75% High Gluten Flour (KA Sir Lancelot); 25% Caputo 00 flour
62% water
salt and yeast are the same
no olive oil or sugar

the same method as written above. I do expect to bump up the water, and raise the temp of the water as summer gives way to fall and winter; but the 64-67% I was doing during the winter when recipe testing was way too wet come May/June.

Thanks for the love; more pictures to come.

Jonathan

Offline derricktung

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2013, 01:08:57 PM »
Jonathan,

Congrats on a great looking NY-Neapolitan hybrid!  Will definitely stop by the next time I'm in the area! 

Like you, I've been working on modifying the Neapolitan style... mine's more of a Neo-Neapolitan, which leans heavily on Neapolitan techniques and stretch, along with some AP flour to give it a bit more structure (most family and friends thought a strict 00 was too floppy).

Regarding stretch/dough thickness factor, so I just wanted to chime in with what I've learned from forum members here.

For Neapolitan, a 12 inch pizza is 250 grams.  A 10 inch pizza is usually at 200 grams.  (I weight my in at 210-220 if one of my partners is stretching to give some leeway). 

Scott, interesting to hear your evolution on pizza as well.  Always insightful to hear how others are developing their pizzas and the history of what impacted them to make those changes...




Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2013, 01:42:05 PM »
My formulation is:
75% High Gluten Flour (KA Sir Lancelot); 25% Caputo 00 flour
62% water
salt and yeast are the same
no olive oil or sugar

the same method as written above. I do expect to bump up the water, and raise the temp of the water as summer gives way to fall and winter; but the 64-67% I was doing during the winter when recipe testing was way too wet come May/June.

Thanks for the love; more pictures to come.

Jonathan
Sounds great Jon...sure would love some pics of your oven and rest. setting pies next time you have a chance to post pics. After looking at your menu I am sure you're pretty busy though!  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline jonathan.copeland

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Re: First attempt at NY-Neapolitan Hybrid
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2013, 01:45:11 PM »
I will post more pictures soon. And yes, I'm very busy, though hopefully all will settle down soon.

Derrick, my doughs weigh 250 grams, and are about 12" maybe a tick smaller.