Author Topic: Second attempt... much better all around.  (Read 5226 times)

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Offline mistachy

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Second attempt... much better all around.
« on: January 04, 2013, 11:50:04 AM »
I want to have a golden brown crust, crispy, but not burnt or have any super dark scorch marks. I also want it to still be able to droop. I dont want the top of my pizza scorched either. I've seen some pizza pictures where people crust look burnt almost, in my opinion, and that would be undesireable to me. What technique should I use with me steel plate. How high should I elevate my steel plate, cooking temp, time, etc?

this imo is superb ny pizza:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-i7JmDGtZGkI/Tdanp9gSRhI/AAAAAAAACLQ/WLLd70aUbP0/s1600/Joes+Buff+under.JPG

and again:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XLwi9WPuxT8/S97U0FGCq5I/AAAAAAAABmQ/udz2V03-gBw/s1600/Main+St+underside.jpg

this... i dont want. it scares me:
http://forums.egullet.org/uploads/1098409713/gallery_13583_273_1098455882.jpg

this looks burnt to me:
http://www.breadcetera.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/pizza-002.jpg

this is perfect pizza:
http://pizzatopians.com.s146729.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/photo1.jpg

this pizza looks so good, i would make love to it:
http://pizzageek.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/img_2123.jpg
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 01:46:53 PM by mistachy »


Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 12:09:02 PM »
I believe you're going to have to shed some light as to what your dough formulation currently looks like and also what you're baking it in. It will be easier then for others to steer you in the right direction as to what time/temp and possible tweaks to your dough you should be looking at to acheive the desired results.
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2013, 12:12:29 PM »
I believe you're going to have to shed some light as to what your dough formulation currently looks like and also what you're baking it in. It will be easier then for others to steer you in the right direction as to what time/temp and possible tweaks to your dough you should be looking at to achieve the desired results.
I dont currently have a dough recipe. I use premade dough from a local Italian grocer and I bake it on a pizza pan.

I just purchased a steel plate to give me crispier crust... and I plan on cooking it in a gas over. It would be good to have a great tasting dough recipe if someone could recommend something based on the pictures I have provided... also some instructions on how to bake it... techniques rather would be most helpful.

Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2013, 12:15:14 PM »
Whoah, your tolerances between want and don't want are pretty tight, imo. To achieve that kind of golden brown while still having some droop is going to be difficult.

I would suggest bread flour (12.7ish% protein) 62% hydration, high oil (4%), high sugar (2%) and a preheat to 500-525 (try 500 first) on the plate.

I think you're going to want a goal of about 8 minutes.

Dialing in the undercrust won't be easy, but getting the right top color could be even harder.  One of the biggest disadvantages to using a broiler is that it's very difficult to maintain a consistent amount of top heat.  You put the broiler on, it's very hot, then you turn it off and it's no longer that hot. For a golden brown rim, you really need a steady sustained heat from above- not too weak, but not too strong, either.

I don't make crispy golden brown pies often, but, when I do, I've played around with cycling the broiler off every minute or so, and that hasn't helped much.

Does your oven have convection?  Convection is golden brown city.

My stone is 6" from the broiler, but, as I said, it's very difficult to get steady heat. If you don't have convection, I'd try going with a lower shelf than mine- maybe 8" from the broiler. The further away, the less impact, so the broiler will need to stay on for a large portion of the bake, though- I'd watch it and see if it cuts out.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2013, 12:18:10 PM »
Whoah, your tolerances between want and don't want are pretty tight, imo. To achieve that kind of golden brown while still having some droop is going to be difficult.

I would suggest bread flour (12.7ish% protein) 62% hydration, high oil (4%), high sugar (2%) and a preheat to 500-525 (try 500 first) on the plate.

I think you're going to want a goal of about 8 minutes.

Dialing in the undercrust won't be easy, but getting the right top color could be even harder.  One of the biggest disadvantages to using a broiler is that it's very difficult to maintain a consistent amount of top heat.  You put the broiler on, it's very hot, then you turn it off and it's no longer that hot. For a golden brown rim, you really need a steady sustained heat from above- not too weak, but not too strong, either.

I don't make crispy golden brown pies often, but, when I do, I've played around with cycling the broiler off every minute or so, and that hasn't helped much.

Does your oven have convection?  Convection is golden brown city.

My stone is 6" from the broiler, but, as I said, it's very difficult to get steady heat. If you don't have convection, I'd try going with a lower shelf than mine- maybe 8" from the broiler. The further away, the less impact, so the broiler will need to stay on for a large portion of the bake, though- I'd watch it and see if it cuts out.
I dont have convection in my oven. and my broiler cant be turned on at the same time the oven's baking feature is on. i either have to use the bake or the broil. i cant do both... Am i supposed to bake or broil?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 12:25:40 PM by mistachy »

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2013, 12:22:43 PM »
Honestly, I think a good stone or unglazed tiles would have been the way to go. Does anyone else agree? The heat transfer, I believe, would be far more that what he wants to achieve the GBND look.
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2013, 12:27:13 PM »
The second pie was baked on a screen.

All the pies you like seem to have at least one thing in common - a small, thin cornice without much rise.

With respect to assembling the pie, I think you want to stretch the dough to an even thickness (cornice not much thicker than the middle), and sauce and cheese it almost all the way out to the edge. When opening the dough, don't be afraid to flatten the whole ball when pressing it out before stretching (as opposed to only pressing the center flat and leaving a defined cornice).

The darkening you don't want comes from a big, airy cornice pushing up into the oven where it will darken much faster than it would down near the rest of the pie
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2013, 12:27:56 PM »
Honestly, I think a good stone or unglazed tiles would have been the way to go. Does anyone else agree? The heat transfer, I believe, would be far more that what he wants to achieve the GBND look.
A stone was out of the question, for many reasons... cant even entertain the idea of having one. tiles, maybe, but steel was preferable. what is GBND?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2013, 12:29:05 PM »
what is GBND?

Golden Brown 'n Delicious
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2013, 12:32:35 PM »
The second pie was baked on a screen.

All the pies you like seem to have at least one thing in common - a small, thin cornice without much rise.

With respect to assembling the pie, I think you want to stretch the dough to an even thickness (cornice not much thicker than the middle), and sauce and cheese it almost all the way out to the edge. When opening the dough, don't be afraid to flatten the whole ball when pressing it out before stretching (as opposed to only pressing the center flat and leaving a defined cornice).

The darkening you don't want comes from a big, airy cornice pushing up into the oven where it will darken much faster than it would down near the rest of the pie
Should i use the broiling feature or am i to leave the oven on 500 after its preheated


Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2013, 12:42:10 PM »
Baking vs. broiling- it really depends on where your bake time lands.  For longer bakes - 8ish+ minutes, the heat from the bottom bake burner is usually enough for good top browning, but, as you decrease the clock, you might need a little help from the broiler.

I would put the plate on the top shelf, pre-heat it to 500 (for 45 minutes) and have the bake setting on during the bake at the peak temp. Your oven's dial goes to 550, right?

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2013, 12:51:18 PM »
Baking vs. broiling- it really depends on where your bake time lands.  For longer bakes - 8ish+ minutes, the heat from the bottom bake burner is usually enough for good top browning, but, as you decrease the clock, you might need a little help from the broiler.

I would put the plate on the top shelf, pre-heat it to 500 (for 45 minutes) and have the bake setting on during the bake at the peak temp. Your oven's dial goes to 550, right?
525 actually. i agree, putting it closer to the top so i can flash it with the broiler if needed seems like a good idea. but my crust is always light still, while the cheese seems to brown more quickly.

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2013, 12:57:41 PM »
but my crust is always light still, while the cheese seems to brown more quickly.

Make sure you use your cheese straight from the fridge and that it is not too finely shredded. Finely shredded, room temp cheese will brown very quickly leaving no alternative but to take the pie out before the crust is finished.
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.

Offline Michael130207

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2013, 01:01:30 PM »
525 actually. i agree, putting it closer to the top so i can flash it with the broiler if needed seems like a good idea. but my crust is always light still, while the cheese seems to brown more quickly.

Make sure you are not using preshredded cheese, it is coated in cornstarch that browns/burns quickly. Buy block cheese and shred it yourself.
Michael

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2013, 01:03:56 PM »
You may have to test several formulas, make several rounds of formula tweaks, try different sauces, cheeses, and different oven arrangements to get the pie you really want. Learning to make pizza at home is easy. Learning to make great pizza at home is a ton of work. If you are expecting to have your first attempt come out exactly how you want it, you are probably going to be disappointed. Nobody can tell you exactly how to get where you want in your unique situation.

With your DIY, trial-and-error preference, you might want to make a few attempts, post pictures, say here is where I am and here is what I'd like to be different, get some suggestions, make a few changes, and repeat.

CL
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2013, 01:28:23 PM »
Make sure you use your cheese straight from the fridge and that it is not too finely shredded. Finely shredded, room temp cheese will brown very quickly leaving no alternative but to take the pie out before the crust is finished.

While your advice is spot on to prevent cheese from browning, it also risks rubbery insufficiently melted cheese, potentially producing less flavor.  If browning is a problem, I think the better approach is fat.  Make sure the cheese is block whole milk and a quality brand, and add a drizzle of oil to any non pepperoni pies. Once you have sufficient fat, a lot of the browning issues go away, as the cheese bubbles properly.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2013, 01:48:31 PM »
this is all good information

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2013, 04:36:44 PM »
I would suggest bread flour (12.7ish% protein) 62% hydration, high oil (4%), high sugar (2%) and a preheat to 500-525 (try 500 first) on the plate.
why should i be using bread flour? keep in mind that i dont like big air bubbles in my pizza. and what should i put for desired commecial yeast and salt percent?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 04:46:54 PM by mistachy »

Offline mvd

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2013, 07:05:20 PM »
Quote
why should i be using bread flour?

Higher protein flours will probably brown more readily than others. It is certainly worth trying. Another similar suggestion is try King Arthur All Purpose flour. It is higher in protein than most AP flours without being considered a bread flour.
Mike

Offline Ev

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2013, 09:45:03 PM »
Honestly, I think a good stone or unglazed tiles would have been the way to go. Does anyone else agree? The heat transfer, I believe, would be far more that what he wants to achieve the GBND look.

Yes, I agree that a good stone would be better suited to the pizza he wants to make, but for some reason, that's "out of the question".


 

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