Author Topic: Second attempt... much better all around.  (Read 5711 times)

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Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2013, 08:40:07 PM »
I put  .1 in the calculator, 18 inches. So that's the thickness it should be right?

No, the pizzas you have in your photos range from .075 to .085.  Thinner pizzas can be a bit harder to stretch, so you might start off with .085, but I would eventually work your way down to .075.


Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2013, 02:59:31 PM »
While your advice is spot on to prevent cheese from browning, it also risks rubbery insufficiently melted cheese, potentially producing less flavor.  If browning is a problem, I think the better approach is fat.  Make sure the cheese is block whole milk and a quality brand, and add a drizzle of oil to any non pepperoni pies. Once you have sufficient fat, a lot of the browning issues go away, as the cheese bubbles properly.

I kind of touched on typical pizza shop style. We always grate blocks of whole milk and since they are always done ahead of time they are always kept cold (even in the prep table). It makes for an easy and most importantly even distrubution. The dough has to be formulated properly to allow the crust to brown and cheese (a high quality one) to melt at approximately the same time or else he'll end up with the unmelted goo you speak of. I think he'll learn in time that it takes time to develop a good pie all around on a consistent basis. Passion is the key mistachy, and experimentation. Not everything will always go right. Mistakes are good, they help you rule certain things out and as a result you get a step closer to "your" perfect pizza each time.

I agree with Scott to start off with a thicker skin. Once you get the hang of stretching it you can go thinner, otherwise you may end up with your fist through it.
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Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2013, 03:12:48 PM »
I kind of touched on typical pizza shop style. We always grate blocks of whole milk and since they are always done ahead of time they are always kept cold (even in the prep table). It makes for an easy and most importantly even distrubution. The dough has to be formulated properly to allow the crust to brown and cheese (a high quality one) to melt at approximately the same time or else he'll end up with the unmelted goo you speak of.

For a shop, that's excellent advice.  You have a lot more leeway with your high quality cheese.  The fat in Grande/Grande clones goes a long way to prevent it from browning prematurely. It also melts far easier when broken up into larger pieces.  For DJ (Mistachy), who's most likely working with supermarket cheese, the tolerances get a lot tighter.  Without additional fat (from pepperoni or a drizzle of oil), it browns a LOT faster, and when broken up into larger chunks, the potential for unmelted goo is huge. Food service motz browns slower, melts faster and is much less likely to curdle with longer intense bakes.


Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2013, 04:18:55 PM »
You are correct. Just the home environment alone is enough to command tweaks to the workflow and challenge even a seasoned pizza maker. I do agree about the fat, it will almost provide a thin barrier from the heat for a time allowing the bake to somewhat "even out". I confess to not having much experience with the store bought cheeses (I'm fortunate enough to not have to resort to the store for many ingredients) and commend everyone who has shown success using them  :pizza:
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Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2013, 06:23:17 PM »
No, the pizzas you have in your photos range from .075 to .085.  Thinner pizzas can be a bit harder to stretch, so you might start off with .085, but I would eventually work your way down to .075.
i havent had any issue stretching dough so far. and i always do 18 inches. with 1 lb balls.

Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2013, 07:39:22 PM »
DJ, are you sure about the dough ball weight and final dimension?  According to my calculations that's .06, which would be incredibly difficult to stretch, imo. If you're comfortable with .06, then I'd work with .075, with an almost rimless relatively even stretch that Craig referred to before.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2013, 07:56:38 PM »
i kept seeing .1 as what NY style is supposed to be, that is the only reason I put .1 in the calculator. so far, ive only bought pre made 1lb balls that the italian deli sells. they are supposed to be for 16 inch pizzas normal thickness but i stretch them out to 18 inches and i end up with very thin pizza.  Pic: http://sdrv.ms/ZdgiCv http://sdrv.ms/ZupVBo

so if u say .1 is thick then yes, i will scale it down.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 08:00:29 PM by mistachy »

Offline scott123

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2013, 09:15:33 PM »
DJ, the .1 listed in the dough calculator is a somewhat contentious figure that's been debated in the past regarding authenticity, and will continue to be debated in the future.  That debate isn't relevant to this discussion, though. I'm just recommending .075 to .085 based on the photos of the pizzas you're striving towards.

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2013, 10:17:54 PM »
i kept seeing .1 as what NY style is supposed to be, that is the only reason I put .1 in the calculator. so far, ive only bought pre made 1lb balls that the italian deli sells. they are supposed to be for 16 inch pizzas normal thickness but i stretch them out to 18 inches and i end up with very thin pizza.

I think that a 16oz dough ball is a bit too light for even a 16 inch pie. Since you're not making it yourself you may want to try to scale it down to a 14 inch pie. We (at the shop) usually use a 20oz ball for a 16 incher and a 16 oz for a 14 incher. I've only recently pushed the ante up slightly to 21.5 and 17.5 respectively since I enjoy a slightly larger cornicone.
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2013, 03:08:44 AM »
i generally use 22oz for a topping-friendly 16" pizza, but lately i've been playing with 20oz and they are thick for a ny style.  18.5oz may be the target for you though

95% sams club HG flour, 5% bob VWG
65% water
.5% oil
.5% sugar
1.3% salt
and yeast is from .3% -1.5%, depending on warm counter rise/cold rise, to two hours to bake (water slightly warmed to 85-90f)

and i get the chewy soft melty inner crumb, and a lightly crisp outside that is still firm enough to handle folding and excessive toppings.
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Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »
i generally use 22oz for a topping-friendly 16" pizza, but lately i've been playing with 20oz and they are thick for a ny style.  18.5oz may be the target for you though

95% sams club HG flour, 5% bob VWG
65% water
.5% oil
.5% sugar
1.3% salt
and yeast is from .3% -1.5%, depending on warm counter rise/cold rise, to two hours to bake (water slightly warmed to 85-90ºf)

and i get the chewy soft melty inner crumb, and a lightly crisp outside that is still firm enough to handle folding and excessive toppings.
I'll go with a 20 oz ball to start and see where that takes me. As far as the yeast, i think i should use more than .4% yeast because ill be doing a warm rise. is that correct? i havnt gotten to make my pizza yet becuase ive been camped out at old chicago all weekend for football
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:35:16 AM by mistachy »

Offline Ev

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2013, 09:02:13 AM »
Sounds like a plan! ;)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2013, 09:20:10 AM »
DJ, the .1 listed in the dough calculator is a somewhat contentious figure that's been debated in the past regarding authenticity, and will continue to be debated in the future.  That debate isn't relevant to this discussion, though. I'm just recommending .075 to .085 based on the photos of the pizzas you're striving towards.


DJ,

What scott123 says is correct. There is a lot of background on how various thickness factor values evolved for the Lehmann NY style. To help put matters into better perspective, you might take a look at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12029.msg112601.html#msg112601.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2013, 01:10:37 PM »
While on your quest to the perfect NY-style pie (we've all been there ;)), you might find this here of interest. Not tooting my own horn just giving you an example what is possible with a regular oven and a high-quality stone.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg125704.html#msg125704

I know you mentioned steel but steel has a learning curve attached to it, so if I were you I'd pick out a good stone such as an American Metalcraft cordierite or a high-temp 3/4" thick kiln shelf from a local pottery supply. Regarding your fear of the stone cracking...these two I mentioned have a high thermal shock resistance. In other words, unless you drop it you should be fine.



Mike

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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2013, 05:33:34 PM »
what kind of learning curve does steel have that a stone does not?
-Jeff

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2013, 07:56:58 PM »
I'm certain to never buy a stone now. The 3/16 steel worked great but I definately have adjustments to make, and I need to start learning to have faith in my abilities and trust my gut. I got timid on my first try and turned the oven down when i should have turned the heat up. The toppings were, sandwich size pepperoni, although you cant tell, and italian sausage. Here was my dough:

Pics link below...

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.5%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (3%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (169.5%):
310.4 g  |  10.95 oz | 0.68 lbs
195.55 g  |  6.9 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
6.21 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
9.31 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
526.13 g | 18.56 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.07293

I did wind up using a half teaspoon of sugar cause my yeast didnt do much for 10 minutes so i put some sugar in it, and with in 5 minutes it was frothy. I put .0175 as a thickness factor, 2% residue offset, with 18 inchs of peetza and came out with a 18 and 3 quarter ounce ball. The calculator was accurate as far as the weight goes. I actually was able to make an 18 and a half inch peetza with 18 and 3 quarter ounce ball.

My criticism. I preheated my steel to only 400 degrees because I was scared of scorching the bottom. But I should have preheated it to maybe 450 because my crust could have been a little darker on the bottom. Also, next time i will use a rolling pin because my dough was warm and soft, such that it stretched super fast and super thin, and i wound up with a large rim and could have used more dough in the center. Maybe I need to be working with cooler temperature dough, but the crust came out okay.  I still have issue with flour residue on my rim and the bottom. I rub my rim down with olive oil to get rid of it and give a better look but I dont want to have to do that. My cheese still cooked too fast even though it was practically frozen. My rim browns too slow and my cheese cooks super fast. "FRUSTRATING, it is..." (in my best yoda voice). I used block, low moisture, fresh motzerella.

Here is the pics directory: http://sdrv.ms/UDinv8

Okay, gents... I know I butchered it by higher standards... so lay it on me. What would you do different, or think i should do different. The pitza tasted great by the way.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:47:30 PM by mistachy »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »
Where is the epic failure?  That looks like an epic first step toward your goal.  Well done.
-Jeff

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2013, 08:21:51 PM »
I think it looks pretty darn good and not many mistachy's at all.  ;D
Sounds like you have a good handle on what adjustments you need for your next bake...that's great.
With a colder dough you will hopefully try hand stretching again and have better results before you pull out that rolling pin. Also with the colder. less extensible dough you should be able to give it a good shake while stretching on the back of your fists...shake that excessive flour right outta your life!  8)
Bob
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Offline mistachy

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2013, 08:24:45 PM »
I think it looks pretty darn good and not many mistachy's at all.  ;D
Sounds like you have a good handle on what adjustments you need for your next bake...that's great.
With a colder dough you will hopefully try hand stretching again and have better results before you pull out that rolling pin. Also with the colder. less extensible dough you should be able to give it a good shake while stretching on the back of your fists...shake that excessive flour right outta your life!  8)
Bob
I find it easy to stretch it by hand, but if you look at my dough pic, it wasnt flat. i should have gotten rid of the the depression before i started working with it. its how i wound up with the big rim i wasnt looking for.

Where is the epic failure?  That looks like an epic first step toward your goal.  Well done.
Thank you... thank you :D

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »
I think this is one of the best tutorials out there on hand stretching pizza dough.
Pay particular attention around the 3 min. mark where Diana Coutu, 5 time Canadian Pizza Baking Champion stresses the point of not flattening out the center of your disk too quickly...this is what taught me how to avoid having rips/tears.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg</a>
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