Author Topic: Second attempt... much better all around.  (Read 7583 times)

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Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »
i generally use 22oz for a topping-friendly 16" pizza, but lately i've been playing with 20oz and they are thick for a ny style.  18.5oz may be the target for you though

95% sams club HG flour, 5% bob VWG
65% water
.5% oil
.5% sugar
1.3% salt
and yeast is from .3% -1.5%, depending on warm counter rise/cold rise, to two hours to bake (water slightly warmed to 85-90ºf)

and i get the chewy soft melty inner crumb, and a lightly crisp outside that is still firm enough to handle folding and excessive toppings.
I'll go with a 20 oz ball to start and see where that takes me. As far as the yeast, i think i should use more than .4% yeast because ill be doing a warm rise. is that correct? i havnt gotten to make my pizza yet becuase ive been camped out at old chicago all weekend for football
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:35:16 AM by mistachy »


Offline Ev

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2013, 09:02:13 AM »
Sounds like a plan! ;)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2013, 09:20:10 AM »
DJ, the .1 listed in the dough calculator is a somewhat contentious figure that's been debated in the past regarding authenticity, and will continue to be debated in the future.  That debate isn't relevant to this discussion, though. I'm just recommending .075 to .085 based on the photos of the pizzas you're striving towards.

DJ,

What scott123 says is correct. There is a lot of background on how various thickness factor values evolved for the Lehmann NY style. To help put matters into better perspective, you might take a look at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12029.msg112601.html#msg112601.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2013, 01:10:37 PM »
While on your quest to the perfect NY-style pie (we've all been there ;)), you might find this here of interest. Not tooting my own horn just giving you an example what is possible with a regular oven and a high-quality stone.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg125704.html#msg125704

I know you mentioned steel but steel has a learning curve attached to it, so if I were you I'd pick out a good stone such as an American Metalcraft cordierite or a high-temp 3/4" thick kiln shelf from a local pottery supply. Regarding your fear of the stone cracking...these two I mentioned have a high thermal shock resistance. In other words, unless you drop it you should be fine.



Mike

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Offline shuboyje

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2013, 05:33:34 PM »
what kind of learning curve does steel have that a stone does not?
-Jeff

Offline mistachy

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2013, 07:56:58 PM »
I'm certain to never buy a stone now. The 3/16 steel worked great but I definately have adjustments to make, and I need to start learning to have faith in my abilities and trust my gut. I got timid on my first try and turned the oven down when i should have turned the heat up. The toppings were, sandwich size pepperoni, although you cant tell, and italian sausage. Here was my dough:

Pics link below...

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.5%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (3%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (169.5%):
310.4 g  |  10.95 oz | 0.68 lbs
195.55 g  |  6.9 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
6.21 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
9.31 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.07 tsp | 0.69 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
526.13 g | 18.56 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.07293

I did wind up using a half teaspoon of sugar cause my yeast didnt do much for 10 minutes so i put some sugar in it, and with in 5 minutes it was frothy. I put .0175 as a thickness factor, 2% residue offset, with 18 inchs of peetza and came out with a 18 and 3 quarter ounce ball. The calculator was accurate as far as the weight goes. I actually was able to make an 18 and a half inch peetza with 18 and 3 quarter ounce ball.

My criticism. I preheated my steel to only 400 degrees because I was scared of scorching the bottom. But I should have preheated it to maybe 450 because my crust could have been a little darker on the bottom. Also, next time i will use a rolling pin because my dough was warm and soft, such that it stretched super fast and super thin, and i wound up with a large rim and could have used more dough in the center. Maybe I need to be working with cooler temperature dough, but the crust came out okay.  I still have issue with flour residue on my rim and the bottom. I rub my rim down with olive oil to get rid of it and give a better look but I dont want to have to do that. My cheese still cooked too fast even though it was practically frozen. My rim browns too slow and my cheese cooks super fast. "FRUSTRATING, it is..." (in my best yoda voice). I used block, low moisture, fresh motzerella.

Here is the pics directory: http://sdrv.ms/UDinv8

Okay, gents... I know I butchered it by higher standards... so lay it on me. What would you do different, or think i should do different. The pitza tasted great by the way.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:47:30 PM by mistachy »

Offline shuboyje

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2013, 08:21:46 PM »
Where is the epic failure?  That looks like an epic first step toward your goal.  Well done.
-Jeff

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2013, 08:21:51 PM »
I think it looks pretty darn good and not many mistachy's at all.  ;D
Sounds like you have a good handle on what adjustments you need for your next bake...that's great.
With a colder dough you will hopefully try hand stretching again and have better results before you pull out that rolling pin. Also with the colder. less extensible dough you should be able to give it a good shake while stretching on the back of your fists...shake that excessive flour right outta your life!  8)
Bob
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Offline mistachy

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Re: My FIRST crack and NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2013, 08:24:45 PM »
I think it looks pretty darn good and not many mistachy's at all.  ;D
Sounds like you have a good handle on what adjustments you need for your next bake...that's great.
With a colder dough you will hopefully try hand stretching again and have better results before you pull out that rolling pin. Also with the colder. less extensible dough you should be able to give it a good shake while stretching on the back of your fists...shake that excessive flour right outta your life!  8)
Bob
I find it easy to stretch it by hand, but if you look at my dough pic, it wasnt flat. i should have gotten rid of the the depression before i started working with it. its how i wound up with the big rim i wasnt looking for.

Where is the epic failure?  That looks like an epic first step toward your goal.  Well done.
Thank you... thank you :D


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2013, 08:48:07 PM »
I think this is one of the best tutorials out there on hand stretching pizza dough.
Pay particular attention around the 3 min. mark where Diana Coutu, 5 time Canadian Pizza Baking Champion stresses the point of not flattening out the center of your disk too quickly...this is what taught me how to avoid having rips/tears.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2013, 09:02:02 PM »
DJ,

I'd say that you did very well although you will shortly be hearing from my lawyers on the patently transparent  use of my forum name for your pizza.

Seriously, you did well. What you might consider in the way of changes next time is to reduce the hydration to 61% and reduce the amount of oil to 2%. The oil has a "wetting" effect on the dough and may make the dough more extensible (stretchy) than desired. Depending on your results, you may need to make further tweaks to get you closer to the results you are after.

Most of us on the forum who have made NY style doughs have avoided the use of rolling pins. However, as a temporary crutch, you might consider the method that Tom Lehmann often uses to teach novitiates in pizza making. He discusses the method at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080.

Peter

Offline mistachy

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2013, 09:08:01 PM »
DJ,

I'd say that you did very well although you will shortly be hearing from my lawyers on the patently transparent  use of my forum name for your pizza.

LOL... pizza just seems wierd. Peet sa or Pit sa just sounds better to me. Thanks for the link. I will try this formula once more before i change it so i have a better understanding of what isnt good about it. then ill will put your good suggestions to use.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2013, 09:30:42 AM »
Looks like you are well on the way to your goal. Nice work.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Ev

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #63 on: January 08, 2013, 09:57:01 AM »
Looks like you are well on the way to your goal. Nice work.

I agree. It's only a failure if it ends up in the garbage can, but even then, if you learned something, it's not a failure at all.
You may need to hunt down some better cheese, or at least a whole milk version. What brand was this?

Offline mistachy

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #64 on: January 08, 2013, 10:37:31 AM »
Walmart sells it in the deli. I ordered 2lbs... not sure what brand Walmart sells fresh in the deli

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Different baking techniques...
« Reply #65 on: January 08, 2013, 10:51:45 AM »
I used block, low moisture, fresh motzerella.


I believe what you have is actually "aged" mozz. Not "fresh"    ;)
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Offline mistachy

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #66 on: January 08, 2013, 11:05:20 AM »
i cant say for certain without going back up there. i got another dough ball rising. will give this another go, cook it faster, see if that helps


Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #67 on: January 08, 2013, 11:45:02 AM »
Looks like you did lots of homework and stayed up extra late cramming for the big day..and it worked  :pizza:

Good job on the pie, it looks just like the ones you're striving towards.
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Offline kramer73

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Re: My FIRST crack at NY from scratch... EPIC FAIL... or is it?
« Reply #68 on: January 08, 2013, 12:49:51 PM »
looks great to me!

Offline mistachy

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Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #69 on: January 08, 2013, 01:45:03 PM »
Okay... awesome beans. I made a few adjustments.

.08 thickness, 18 inches, 2% offset

Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
ADY (.5%):
Salt (1.5%):
Sugar (2%):
Shortening (2%):
Total (167%):
352.5 g  |  12.43 oz | 0.78 lbs
215.03 g  |  7.58 oz | 0.47 lbs
1.76 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
5.29 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.95 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
7.05 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
7.05 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.76 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
588.68 g | 20.76 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = 0.0816

I find it very interesting that I wound up with a 23 ounce ball after kneeding with this formula. But in anycase I only made minor adjustments just to see what would happen compared to first time around. I worked with a cooler temp dough and I changed the cheese I was using to the cheapo great value preshredded stuff just to see if I would get any difference. It was all I had in the fridge. It came out much better than the block cheese I was using although it still browned too fast for my taste, I will see about getting the cheese suggested. My crust was browner, crispier, but I like a softer crust, so that was a little disappointing.  I like it firm on the bottom, soft on the outside rim. Indeed that didnt happen. My crust seems dried out. I cant really get a shorter cook time on my pizza because my rim wont brown. I preheaded the steel to 400, dropped the pizza on there and cooked it for 15 minutes on 525 on the top wrack this time. The pizza came out better than last time where i cooked it for 15 minutes on 400. If I cook it any less than 15 minutes, my rim wouldnt be very brown, so I dont really how to accommodate for that. I could use the broiler, but the broiler wont heat the top very evenly. I would have to open the oven take the pizza out and twist it around, but that would let a lot of baking heat out.  hmmm...  here are some photos:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=8CE975D81ADA7799!267&authkey=!AE2uCWdGdB_kdmY
PICS


ooooo snap! i know what i did wrong. I measured out 7.5 fluid ounces. DOH!!!!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 02:07:51 PM by mistachy »

Offline slybarman

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Re: Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #70 on: January 08, 2013, 01:53:11 PM »
Link is asking for a sign in to view the photos.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2013, 02:07:06 PM »
Link is asking for a sign in to view the photos.
Try it now

Offline slybarman

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Re: Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2013, 02:44:01 PM »
Not a bad looking pie. Id eat a slice. As scott mentioned, peperoni does wonders for keeping the cheese from browning. I have to try a bit of oil as was mentioned for a cheese pie. I also keep the cheesr frozen which helps a little bit.

Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread already, but you can also brush the rim with oil to get it to brown faster. I found out though you have to be pretty careful though because it doesn't take much misplaced oil to make the pie stick to the peel.

Offline mistachy

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Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2013, 03:50:29 PM »
Not a bad looking pie. Id eat a slice. As scott mentioned, peperoni does wonders for keeping the cheese from browning. I have to try a bit of oil as was mentioned for a cheese pie. I also keep the cheesr frozen which helps a little bit.

Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread already, but you can also brush the rim with oil to get it to brown faster. I found out though you have to be pretty careful though because it doesn't take much misplaced oil to make the pie stick to the peel.
ill try brushing the rim next bake with oil. thats a great idea. i put peperoni directly on top of the tomato sauce... should i put the peperoni on last? my motzerella was partially frozen, i think i will try freezing it. that sounds like a wonderful suggestion.

Offline slybarman

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Re: Re: Second attempt... much better all around.
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2013, 04:26:56 PM »
Putting the pepperoni last definitely keeps the cheese from burning. I guess the oil comes out of the pepperoni as it cooks and has the same effect as putting oil on top of the cheese as scott described.