Author Topic: All Trumps Bromated Flour  (Read 5333 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
All Trumps Bromated Flour
« on: January 05, 2013, 07:44:17 PM »
Is this the flour of choice for the majority of the places making NY style pies? I was in a local restaurant supply store this afternoon and saw that they had 50# bags of All Trumps Bromated. The guy working there said that a lot of the local pizza places use this kind of flour. I love a nice NY style pizza, but I think it would be difficult to replicate it in my home oven that can only get to 550. Those that have used AT, do you use it at 100% strength or do you cut it with AP or BF? Let me know your thoughts on this flour. I think I may pick some up in the near future. Thanks in advance!

Chaz
Chaz


scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2013, 08:52:37 PM »
All Trumps has the market share in the NY area, and you could do worse for NY style pizza, but, imo, you could also do better.  Unless you treat it with kid gloves, All Trumps doughs have a tendency towards being tough, you can cut with all purpose and gain a bit more tenderness, but then you lose the volume providing benefits of the bromate.  Rather than cutting a high protein bromated flour with a lower protein unbromated flour, it's better to just purchase a medium high protein (13%ish) bromated flour and use that on it's own- the right level of protein, combined with a full dose of bromate.

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 09:15:37 PM »
Scott, i thought I would get a reply from you regarding this topic  :D Is Spring King one of those 13%ish flours that you mention? I guess I will give All Trumps a shot and see how it goes. Then again if I dont like it I will have 50# of the stuff on hand  :-D I guess I can do a whole lot of experimenting.
Chaz

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24195
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 10:17:18 PM »
Chaz,

I think you will like All Trumps, but just donít over mix.  I liked All Trumps when I used it.  I use Kyrol now because it also performs a little better than All Trumps for me.  Maybe I was over mixing the All Trumps though when I was using it though.   :-D  Kyrol is also cheaper in price at my distributor.

Norma

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 493
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2013, 10:35:21 PM »
Chaz, I like All Trumps, and I only knead it in my Kitchen Aid for 3 minutes, and I really like it.  I do a New York pizza in the 4 minute range, and it is not tough.  Mark

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2013, 10:36:13 PM »
Mark, I'm curious, what's your hydration these days?

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 493
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2013, 10:45:24 PM »
Scott, it is 63 %.  Water filtered thru a Pur filter.  Usually a 48 hour cold ferment.  I am still using those Pyrex glass bowls for fermentation.  Mark

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 132
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2013, 10:46:47 AM »
100% AT for me. Cooked in a GE electric oven with a 550 degree max. (Stone gets to 605 with a 1-1/2 hour preheat.) 63% hydration. Pizza cooks in about 5-1/2 minutes.

Offline slybarman

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1060
  • Location: Maryland
Re: Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2013, 11:03:11 AM »
How does the stone get to 600 in a 550 oven? Mine wont do that?


Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2013, 11:22:53 AM »
100% AT for me. Cooked in a GE electric oven with a 550 degree max. (Stone gets to 605 with a 1-1/2 hour preheat.) 63% hydration. Pizza cooks in about 5-1/2 minutes.

What are you using to mix? Do you find it to get tough if over mixed?
Chaz

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2013, 01:53:16 PM »
Scott, it is 63 %.  Water filtered thru a Pur filter.  Usually a 48 hour cold ferment.  I am still using those Pyrex glass bowls for fermentation.  Mark

Mark, have you had much experience with AT at greater hydrations?  I think that my historically more elevated hydration (66%+) with 100% AT doughs might have played a part in my toughness issues. I still think 13% protein is generally preferable to 14% for NY. There could be a subjective aspect to this as well. I'm curious, since working with steel, have you ever tried diluting the AT with AP?

How does the stone get to 600 in a 550 oven? Mine wont do that?

Steve, some people are lucky  ;D Out of the members of this forum, I'd guesstimate that 1 out of 30 have 550 ovens that will break 600. But there's the occasional person that has a 550 oven that will only reach 525. It's just the luck of the draw.  500 oven owners seem to be the most fortunate, so far, most of the ones I've come across go above 500 and many go above 550.  Oven dials are really more suggestions than precise controllers :)

I love a nice NY style pizza, but I think it would be difficult to replicate it in my home oven that can only get to 550.

With the right baking surface you can match the results of any deck oven of the world's best NY style pizzerias. 

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2013, 02:43:17 PM »
With the right baking surface you can match the results of any deck oven of the world's best NY style pizzerias. 

When you say the right baking surface, are you referring to something other than a stone?
Chaz

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2013, 03:24:44 PM »
When you say the right baking surface, are you referring to something other than a stone?

Chaz, for the most part, yes, I am recommending steel, although there are factors that might allow stone to hit what, imo, are world class NY style bake times. Is your 550 peak temp confirmed with an infrared thermometer?  If yes, then I think steel is the answer, specifically 1/2".  If it's 550 on the dial, but you haven't measured it, then there's a chance you're one of the lucky ones that can hit higher temps. 575 with a 1" cordierite kiln shelf (stone) could get you there. Maybe.  Steel is generally a much safer bet, though.

And this is all assuming your oven has a broiler in the main compartment. If you trim the bottom bake times with a more conductive material like steel, you'll need to trim the top times as well by augmenting it with some broiler heat.

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2013, 04:07:23 PM »
Scott, I have not confirmed the temp of my oven with an IR therm. That is actually on my list to get in the near future. So when I do get one, i will certainly be getting back to you for more baking suggestions  ;)
Chaz

Offline communist

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 493
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2013, 05:33:56 PM »
Mark, have you had much experience with AT at greater hydrations?  I think that my historically more elevated hydration (66%+) with 100% AT doughs might have played a part in my toughness issues. I still think 13% protein is generally preferable to 14% for NY. There could be a subjective aspect to this as well. I'm curious, since working with steel, have you ever tried diluting the AT with AP?

 
  Scott, I have never worked above 63% hydration.  It is tempting, but I find for a 16 inch pizza with a thickness factor of .07, it is challenging to make a nice circle when stretching the dough.  I am afraid a higher hydration could get out of hand.  I have never diluted my All Trumps.   Mark

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2013, 07:43:22 PM »
Well...the IR therm arrived today so I just had to play  :-D Fired up the electric oven to 550. After an hour of heating at 550, the stone was just a hair under 600 at 597!  So scott, do you think I should stick with the stone or a look for a cordierite kiln shelf?
Chaz

Offline DannyG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 132
Re: Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 10:58:16 AM »
How does the stone get to 600 in a 550 oven? Mine wont do that?

An electric oven is controlled by the thermostat which is constantly turning on and off the heating element to regulate the temperature. The stone, which is on the bottom directly over the element retains the heat longer than the air in the oven. So when the over air cools and the element is turned on it heats the stone ever more to the point where it reaches a maximum temperature which in my oven (your basic GE) is about 600-605 degrees. The oven is about 3 years old but when we first go it the stone would get to 610.

What are you using to mix? Do you find it to get tough if over mixed?
I have a Kitchen Aid Pro 600 series mixer. I add everything to the bowl and using the dough hook in my hand, I mix all the ingredients until they just come together. I then put it on the mixer and mix for about 5 minutes. I then take the dough out of the bowl and do a number of stretch and folds until it gets to where I want it. It will get tough if you over mix which is why I like do the folds as I can feel what the dough is doing.


scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 05:46:37 PM »
Fired up the electric oven to 550. After an hour of heating at 550, the stone was just a hair under 600 at 597!  So scott, do you think I should stick with the stone or a look for a cordierite kiln shelf?

Sorry, Chaz, I left out an important aspect of the testing criteria. We need temperature readings of the stone on one of the higher shelves- ideally 5-7" from the broiler, so you can use the broiler during the bake. Could you run one more test?

Have we talked about your existing stone before?  I'm drawing a blank. I recall you talking about a 15 minute bake with a 30 minute pre-heat at 550, so I'm guessing we're not talking about a thick stone here.  Is this one of those 1/4-3/8" walmart/target stones?

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2013, 06:45:02 PM »
Scott the temps on the stone were taken with the stone on the second rack from the bottom. I am not sure where I got the stone but I think its from bed bath and beyond. If I understand you correctly my bake and broil settings are seperate...meaning they cant be running at the same time. When I get home I will get a stone temp about 5-7 inches from the top and report back...lol
Chaz

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2013, 07:54:01 PM »
Here are the #s with the stone about 5-7 inches from the top (top rack) after 30 minutes: Center 752, right edge 653, left edge 667.
Chaz

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2013, 09:04:30 PM »
Chaz, I think we might have crossed lines here.  Were these numbers using the bake feature or the broil?  The pre-heat should be utilizing the bake feature. Also, are you taking readings of the top or the bottom of the stone? The readings should be of the top.

Btw, does this oven have a convection feature?

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2013, 09:39:51 PM »
The latest numbers were using the broil setting with readings from on top of the stone. The oven does not have a convection feature.
Chaz

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2013, 11:02:34 PM »
Sorry about the confusion, Chaz.  The pre-heat needs to be the bottom bake element, not the broiler. Some people give their stones a quick pulse of broiler before baking to try and push some more heat into it, but using the broiler solely for the pre-heat is a losing effort. You can drive up the surface temp (as you saw), but pizza bakes with heat stored through the entire stone, not just the surface.

When I talked about utilizing the broiler before it was strictly during the bake. Pre-heat with the bake function, launch, turn on the broiler for part of the time the pizza is baking. The time you turn the broiler on hinges on how fast the bottom is browning.

Offline Chaze215

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 887
  • Location: Jersey Shore
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2013, 06:55:50 PM »
So I currently bake at 550 on the second shelf from the bottom for about 7 minutes. Would u suggest moving it up a shelf or 2 closer to the broiler to finish the bake?
Chaz

scott123

  • Guest
Re: All Trumps Bromated Flour
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2013, 09:25:59 PM »
Chaz, you generally want to bring the broiler into play when you have a conductive hearth that bakes the bottom of the pizza quickly.

If your hearth, when pre-heated to 550, gives you 7 minute bakes, then that's probably slow enough to provide good top browning without the need for any broiling.

I'd still like to see what stone temps you can see when pre-heated on bake for 1 hour @550 on the top rack, but I think it's pretty safe to say that, to break that 7 minute bake barrier, 1/2" steel (or 1/2" aluminum if you're feeling flush and want something lighter) is the answer. Also, I stopped recommending soapstone quite a while back, but, since you're in the area, M. Teixeira in Hackensack supposedly has 'high talc' 3/4" x 18 x 18 tiles in the $20-$30 realm that are extremely intriguing.

This being said, I'm coming from a perspective that 4-5 minute bakes are ideal, and, even if they aren't your ultimate goal, they should be a bake time you experience at least once.  I haven't eaten any Tom's River pizza, but I have no doubt that most of the commercial pizza in your area is in the 7-12 minute realm, so if emulating the 'pros' is your goal, you've got the right setup already. I'm trying to push you towards what I believe is something superior to the pizza in your area.

Speaking of Tom's River, it's not exactly next door, but the Sister restaurant of my favorite area pizzeria, Pizza Town, is located in Ocean Grove and goes by the name the Pizza Shoppe. From a talk that I had with the Pizza Town owner, Michele Tomo, the pizza should be identical.  'Should'  :). If you're ever in the area, it would be a good introduction to a 4 minute bake.


 

pizzapan