Author Topic: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer  (Read 1031 times)

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Offline JD

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Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« on: January 07, 2013, 01:37:34 PM »
**Disregarding lactobacillus effect**


A few years back before my pizza journey began, I was heavily into making beer. One of the most important keys to sucess was to a) maintain a constant temperature throughout the fermentation process and b) never go above 72ish degrees F. If for some reason you went above 72 degrees during fermentation, the yeast would start to produce a noticeable sourness or otherwise unpleasant flavor in the final product.

Is there anyone who has taken the above in question and experimented with it? I'm not talking about the sourness from lactobacillus, but sourness specifically from yeast bi-products influenced by high temperatures.


Temperature plays a huge role in beer making, so why not pizza?
Josh


Online TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2013, 02:38:42 PM »
Temperature plays a huge role in beer making, so why not pizza?

It does play a huge role. One that is not fully appreciated by many. Temperature has a profound effect on flavor produced, but perhaps not in the way your asking about.

If you're asking why dough doesn't get bitter if fermented at higher temperatures, keep in mind that baking is not brewing. For one thing, the substrate is quite a bit more hydrated in brewing (to say the least). Fermentation also goes on for a lot longer (even compared to what we would consider cold [refrigerated] fermentation in baking).

I don't know a lot about brewing, but I would guess that warmer fermentation could lead to more higher-order alcohols which might be perceived as sour and certainly unpleasant. However, alcohols don't accumulate in dough in anywhere near the same quantities as brewing for the reasons noted above, and they are largely baked off.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2013, 05:30:52 PM »
Another important difference is that pizza is fermented pre bake, beer is fermented post boil.  The heat of cooking will drive off most of the flavor compounds yeast will create good or bad, they tend to be very volatile. 
-Jeff

Offline JD

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2013, 07:25:34 AM »
Good points guys. Guess the answer wasn't as complicated as I expected.

JD
Josh

Offline fresnosmooth

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 04:44:27 PM »
I just re-read the question - disregard.

Looking forward to what people say
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 04:47:56 PM by fresnosmooth »

Offline fresnosmooth

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 04:50:54 PM »
By the way - that "lactobacillus" thing - is that the enzymatic reaction we breadmakers use to get either more Lactic acid or more Acetic acid by controlling the temperature during fermentation??

Offline fresnosmooth

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2013, 11:52:00 AM »
So I pulled "The Bread Bible" by Rose Levy Beranbaum: Copyright 2003 (Pg 30 paragraph 4) - It's been a while since I had to properly cite so forgive me

"When chilled, the yeast goes into dormancy, slowing it's activity and producing more alcohol (Me: producing more alcohol doesn't sound right, but that's what it says).  This decreased activity gives the bacteria a chance to feed on the sugar, develop more, and produce more acetic acid.  Temperatures of 40 to 55 F are ideal for the formation of acetic acid; 55 to 90 F results in the formation of the blander lactic acid.  Acetic acid imparts a far more sour quality to bread than lactic acid.  As an added benefit, acetic acid also strengthens the doughs structure, although too much of this acidity would ultimately weaken it.  Some bakers prefer the milder flavor provided by lactic acid."
..... paragraph 5 .....
".... if the dough ferments for too long, the yeast and bacteria will consume all of the sugar in the flour, and the bread will have a pale crust and bland flavor.  Some residual sugar in the dough is necessary both for flavor and to brown the crust."

Jeffery Hamelman's "BREAD" will tell you the same thing

By the way, both great books to get to know your dough
« Last Edit: January 10, 2013, 12:16:16 PM by fresnosmooth »

Offline fresnosmooth

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2013, 12:54:26 PM »
Tell you what though - books are one thing, doing is an entirely other.  I'll take that challenge

I'll do a little get together and have a pizza tasting (followed by a beer tasting) card party and get results back to you.

Hows.... (and help me out a little - tell me what you've been wondering about time/temp proofing and I'll try it and tell you how it turns out)

No sponge/poolish/biga/starter,  60% hydration, lighten up a little on the yeast, 2% salt plane jane dough - hand tossed and cooked on a stone (same time, same temp - I have an IR gun and I'll use it)
Toppings - just a little sprinkle of Blue Cheese and Sauteed Onions (this is a great little appetizer with wine)

1.  24 hour cold rise
2.  24 hour "warm" rise (I dunno about <this)
3.  48 hour cold rise
4.  48 hour "warm" rise (Really skeptical about <this one - I think it'll be burned out - hope the yeast reduction is enough)

I'll try to pull everyone together but I may have run out of time to do this until next weekend.  I'll take as many pics as I can.

Offline JD

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2013, 12:59:58 PM »
Temperatures of 40 to 55 F are ideal for the formation of acetic acid; 55 to 90 F results in the formation of the blander lactic acid.  Acetic acid imparts a far more sour quality to bread than lactic acid.  As an added benefit, acetic acid also strengthens the doughs structure, although too much of this acidity would ultimately weaken it.  Some bakers prefer the milder flavor provided by lactic acid."


This is very interesting information. I would love to test this theory alone and see if you can truely taste the difference. I'm sure someone here in the past has done this sort of experiment already, hopefully they will chime in.
Josh

enter8

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2013, 01:07:31 PM »
By the way - that "lactobacillus" thing - is that the enzymatic reaction we breadmakers use to get either more Lactic acid or more Acetic acid by controlling the temperature during fermentation??

Lactobacillus (lactobacilli in plural) refer to a genus of bacteria not an enzyme. These bacteria are noted for their production of lactic acid and (often) acetic acid during fermentation. Their contribution is most significant in doughs leavened with sourdough starter or "levain".


Offline fresnosmooth

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2013, 01:15:52 PM »
Oh, I think it's starting to come together for me - thank you.

So technically the first thing the original poster wrote about disregarding Lactobacillus .... is exactly what I didn't disregard ....

Sorry bout that. :-[

Offline JD

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Re: Fermentation Temperatures: Pizza vs. Beer
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2013, 01:35:58 PM »
Oh, I think it's starting to come together for me - thank you.

So technically the first thing the original poster wrote about disregarding Lactobacillus .... is exactly what I didn't disregard ....

Sorry bout that. :-[

No apologies necessary, I learned something from your post (Lactic acid vs. Acetic acid) Just need to do some experimenting on that concept to see if it's worthwile fermenting at sub 55* temperatures.
Josh