Tom L. Recipe Trouble! Help

[iareto42]

Hi I am a noobie at making pizza.  I have a commercial mixer that I use as well as a Baker's Pride Gas Oven with three pizza stones in it.  I've been experimenting with Tom L's NY Style Dough recipe for a few weeks now.  The hydration that is called for in his recipe makes my dough way too sticky that I have to add alot more flour.  In addition, I prefer to use AP flour.  Another problem I have is that the pizza crust doesn't brown very well.  What are some of the reasons that might be causing these problems?

1. Hydration?
2. Not Browning?

[scott123]

Iareto, a few things.

First, all purpose flour, for NY style, isn't really all that viable, especially if you live in an area where the all purpose flour might not have a lot of protein in it.

This is why your dough is sticky.  Protein traps water.  The less protein you have, the less water is trapped, the more sticky the dough gets. You could decrease the water to accommodate the lower protein flour, or, more preferably, you can track down a higher protein flour. Whereabouts are you located?

There are ingredients that will help you achieve better browning, but, before we discuss these, I think it's critical for you to track down appropriate flour. A home chef can go through the alchemy of getting good results from all purpose, but, in a commercial setting, you really need the right tool for the job.

Secondly, tell us more about your Baker's Pride oven.  Do you know the model #?

[iareto42]

Iareto, a few things.

First, all purpose flour, for NY style, isn't really all that viable, especially if you live in an area where the all purpose flour might not have a lot of protein in it.

This is why your dough is sticky.  Protein traps water.  The less protein you have, the less water is trapped, the more sticky the dough gets. You could decrease the water to accommodate the lower protein flour, or, more preferably, you can track down a higher protein flour. Whereabouts are you located?

There are ingredients that will help you achieve better browning, but, before we discuss these, I think it's critical for you to track down appropriate flour. A home chef can go through the alchemy of getting good results from all purpose, but, in a commercial setting, you really need the right tool for the job.

Secondly, tell us more about your Baker's Pride oven.  Do you know the model #?

Thanks Scott,
My Baker's Pride model is Y-600 I believe.  I can get Bread Flour which might be a little better than AP. I've experimented with it before, using 56% hydration with the same results.  I'll try using lower hydration.  I'm located in the South Pacific.  I'm not sure if humidity has any affect on my dough.  Also, FYI my kitchen is pretty hot right now as our exhaust fans are currently down.  Not sure if this is useful info either

Thanks again for your reply

[Pete-zza]

iareto42,

Can you tell us more about your flours, both all-purpose and bread flour, including the brand names if you know them?

It often happens that flours milled from grains outside of the U.S. have substantial starch damage, which makes it difficult to hydrate using the standard hydration values. Maybe we can offer more in the way of advice once we know what flours you are using.

Peter

[scott123]

Iareto, could you give us as much detail as you can regarding your entire doughmaking/baking workflow?  Mixing times, mixer speeds, fermentation schedule, thickness factor, bake times etc.

This may be more effort than you want to invest, but, when dealing with non American flours, one of the best ways for us to help you judge them is a video of them being mixed/balled.  Second to that would be photos. It's up to you, but if you want to streamline this troubleshooting process, video would help.

Do you have multiple brands of bread flour to choose from?

How are you storing the flour? In bags?

[iareto42]

iareto42,

Can you tell us more about your flours, both all-purpose and bread flour, including the brand names if you know them?

It often happens that flours milled from grains outside of the U.S. have substantial starch damage, which makes it difficult to hydrate using the standard hydration values. Maybe we can offer more in the way of advice once we know what flours you are using.

Peter

The Flours that I am using are both manufactured in the states.  The Bread Flour is Honeyville Foods (wich is out of Utah and California) and the AP Flour is manufactured by Springville (which I have always assumed was U.S. based)

Thanks for you help Peter

[iareto42]

Iareto, could you give us as much detail as you can regarding your entire doughmaking/baking workflow?  Mixing times, mixer speeds, fermentation schedule, thickness factor, bake times etc.

This may be more effort than you want to invest, but, when dealing with non American flours, one of the best ways for us to help you judge them is a video of them being mixed/balled.  Second to that would be photos. It's up to you, but if you want to streamline this troubleshooting process, video would help.

Do you have multiple brands of bread flour to choose from?

How are you storing the flour? In bags?

I will work on taking pictures first, which is the easiest.  But Video would probably be best.  I'll eventually make one when I have the right tools.

In answer to your question, I don't have much in choice of flour choice.  For AP, we use springville.  I have never seen King Arthur brand that alot of people on the forum talk about.  For bread flour, I've only come across one, which is Honeyville Foods "Bleached Fantastic Bread Flour"

And finally, I am storing my flour in Bags

Hope this helps to figure out my problems

Thanks again

[scott123]

For bread flour, I've only come across one, which is Honeyville Foods "Bleached Fantastic Bread Flour"

There's your problem.  The Honeyville web site lists Fantastic Bread Flour as having

Protein    10.5% - 11.5%

10.5% - 11.5% is a little lower than the protein content of many all purpose flours (which will frequently register in the 11.8% realm).

I don't have specs for the Springville AP, but, like I said before, the fact that it's AP makes it unsuitable for a commercial pizzeria, imo.

Do you have access to any of the other Honeyville flours, such as Imperial?

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/imperialhi-glutenflour50lb.aspx#.UO9rhWroozM

This should have a much better protein content for pizza.

Have you exhausted all your flour resources and spoken to every potential distributor?  Do you have many local bakeries? Where are they getting their flour from?

[Chicago Bob]

 what temps can your Y-600 do?

[scott123]

what temps can your Y-600 do?

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Y-600-800.pdf

The Y-600 has a thermostat that will go to 650 and that can most likely be modded to go 50-75 degrees above that. At least, I think it can.  The marsals seem to have the most history of being modded, but I think the BPs have the same capability.

Peak temp is rarely an issue for gas deck ovens.  It's the bottom/top heat ratio.  As you crank the thermostat, the tendency is for the undercrusts to burn before the tops are done. You can alleviate this issue, to an extent, with a brick ceiling, and/or a less conductive hearth, such as the fibrament used in the Marsal MBs.

[iareto42]

There's your problem.  The Honeyville web site lists Fantastic Bread Flour as having

Protein    10.5% - 11.5%

10.5% - 11.5% is a little lower than the protein content of many all purpose flours (which will frequently register in the 11.8% realm).

I don't have specs for the Springville AP, but, like I said before, the fact that it's AP makes it unsuitable for a commercial pizzeria, imo.

Do you have access to any of the other Honeyville flours, such as Imperial?

http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/imperialhi-glutenflour50lb.aspx#.UO9rhWroozM

This should have a much better protein content for pizza.

Have you exhausted all your flour resources and spoken to every potential distributor?  Do you have many local bakeries? Where are they getting their flour from?

Unfortunately, being as remote as we are here in the South Pacific and the market not as big as the States, we don't have much variety of Flours here.  Most Bakeries here have been around for years, and I assume that they have mastered using AP flour.  I will continue to look though

Thank you so much!!!!

[Chicago Bob]

VWG?

[scott123]

Iareto, exhaust every possible avenue.  Your pizza, you business, your livelihood all depend on having access to the best possible flour. Call everywhere. Find out if any places are selling bagels.  Where there's bagels there's pizza flour.

Does the Springville flour list protein content per 100g on the bag? Does the person you're getting it from have any specs?

VWG?

I really hope it doesn't have to come this.

[iareto42]

Additional Info that might be affecting my NY style Pizza crust:

1. The Room Temperature where I make my dough is easily at least 80-85 degrees (approx.) It is very Hot.

2. I'm Using Honeyville Bleached Bread Flour

3. I just received my thermometer, and was able to get my Baker's Pride oven up to at least 500 degrees (preheat for 45 minutes).  I'm assuming I can get it hotter if I preheat longer.  I will test tomorrow and find out

4. I cook my pies directly on the pizza stones for approximately 10-12 minutes

5. I'm using around 53% Hydration ( with the flour I'm using, this makes the dough turn out ok.  Anymore water, and the dough becomes too sticky)

6. I'm using 2% Sugar to help with browning

7. My ADT (actual dough temp) out of the commercial standing mixer is roughly about 100+ degrees

Now for my Questions:

1. Is it possible to add ice to my water to drop the temperature in order to achieve 80-85% DDT? (Adjusting the room temperature is not an option at this point)

2. I am having trouble with the browning of my crust, Can the bleach in the bread flour I am using be causing that?

3.  I added sugar to my recipe to help in the browning process, but nothing noticeably different.  Is there anything else I can do?

4.  I only have access to All Purpose and Bread Flour here.  Which is more preferable to use? ( I do NOT have access to High Gluten Flour)

5. What are the desired temperature for my Gas Baker's Pride Oven, and how long should I bake my Pies?

6. Can IDY be affected it is not stored properly? ( for example, after opening should it be put in a jar or container for storing?  Is the heat in my kitchen going to affect the IDY during storage? Should it be stored in the fridge?)

Thanks again for reading and Thanks for your Help!

[scott123]

4.  I only have access to All Purpose and Bread Flour here.  Which is more preferable to use? ( I do NOT have access to High Gluten Flour)

Iareto, let me be clear about this. You do not have access to Bread flour. Honeyville Fantastic Bread Flour may call itself 'Bread Flour' but, at 11% protein (+/- 5%) it is NOT bread flour. It is All Purpose, and not a strong AP flour at that.

How many bakeries have you called?  How many food distributors?  How many importers?  If you've made less than 150 phone calls, it's time to make more calls.  By trying to work with ridiculously weak flour, you're trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole.

If you could tell us what island you're on, I'll do some research. No promises, but I've managed to find high gluten flour in some pretty remote locations.

[iareto42]

Iareto, let me be clear about this. You do not have access to Bread flour. Honeyville Fantastic Bread Flour may call itself 'Bread Flour' but, at 11% protein (+/- 5%) it is NOT bread flour. It is All Purpose, and not a strong AP flour at that.

How many bakeries have you called?  How many food distributors?  How many importers?  If you've made less than 150 phone calls, it's time to make more calls.  By trying to work with ridiculously weak flour, you're trying to squeeze a round peg into a square hole.

If you could tell us what island you're on, I'll do some research. No promises, but I've managed to find high gluten flour in some pretty remote locations.

Scott,

I know there is no other flour here.  Our island has 60,000 people.  So yes I've made less than 150 calls.  These are my options for flour, unless I takes the costly route of ordering it myself from the U.S.

[iareto42]

Scott,

I know there is no other flour here.  Our island has 60,000 people.  So yes I've made less than 150 calls.  These are my options for flour, unless I takes the costly route of ordering it myself from the U.S.

[scott123]

Iareto, is it any less expensive to import flour from Fiji?

I found a mill in Fiji that has flour with 12% protein:

http://www.fmf.com.fj/product/read.asp?pro_idx=122&pro_cat_idx=1

12% isn't perfect, but it's far better than 11%.

Also, are you able to do business with New Zealand?  New Zealand will have exactly the flour you require.

[scott123]

I did a little more digging and found this:

http://www.mistertao.com/taobao-products/taobao-item-2110678154.html
http://www.lamsoon.com/en/cb_flour_en.html

I can't find any specs on Golden Statue, but I'm relatively certain that it's high gluten (higher than 12%).  Hong Kong isn't as close as Fiji, and you might have language barriers to deal with, but I think, with shipping, you can match or better the price you're paying for Honeyville.

[Mal]

I've used Golden Statue a fair bit and thought it was overpriced for what it was. It's basically strong bread flour. Flavorwise...meh.