Randy’s recipe (a few changes) hand mixed; Need help with crumb

[Danes Dad]

Scottr - I will definitely give your “ultimate” recipe a try, I still have some bread flour left over.  Although I’m not sure about the starter culture.  I’m only familiar with commercial yeast.  Maybe someone could suggest the alterations that would have to be made.  Here I was all ready to give up on bread flour thinking that was the reason for my pizza disappointment then to find out your having great success with it.

I was able to get some high gluten flour (Pendleton Mills) yesterday and kneaded up a dough to try and replicate what Pete-zza did with Canadave’s NY style while in MA.  Peter while you worked with a dough of 21oz I stuck with Canadaves weight of 16oz (453g).  All other instructions were followed exactly.  The water temp I used was 62F.

Dough preparation was wonderful.  After initial mixing of all ingredients except salt and oil.  I left the dough to rest for 20 minutes.  I then mixed in the oil.  I was nervous about adding in the salt as I was worried it would all clump in one spot so I sprinkled it on the marble surface and let the dough pick it up.  Working with 21g of oil seemed like a lot, but it worked in well.  Peter I decided to knead the dough on a marble slab which was cool to the touch.  I think this helped keep my dough temp low.  I only kneaded for 13 minutes.  The dough was tacky, but didn’t stick to the marble.  Final dough temp was 80F.  Final dough weight was 757g.

Cooled the dough for 24hrs.  It didn’t rise nearly like my first two attempts, but it did spread out.  This was due to the fact that I cooled it in a large casserole dish that didn’t have restrictive sides.  After 24hrs I allowed the dough to warm to room temp, about 70minutes.  The oven was warmed to 545F for 1hr before putting pizza in.

The dough stretched unbelievably easy.  I could have easily made a 20” pizza.  I was able to get the dough to stretch to 16” by only using pushing using my fingertips.  I never had to lift the dough off the counter.  The stretching only took about 2minutes.  This pizza really turned out great.  My voids were large and numerous and the dough really had that pizza texture.  Next time I do this I will refrigerate the dough for 48hrs+.

This recipe should be under Canadave’s NY style seeing as it is his recipe, but I did wanted to follow up with my hand kneading attempts.  I will go back and try Randy’s recipe again.  This time I will use the high gluten and follow his recipe exactly.  Also, now that Scottr has told me of his results with bread flour and hand kneading I’ll attempt his process.

The following pictures show my results from Canadaves NY style.  Peter do these compare to your results?

Danes Dad

[eric22]

Hey Danes dad.   Your close.   Your also burning the bottom of your pizza.

http://www.think2020.com/jv/Recipe.htm

This guys pizza gets done in a few minutes. You should look at his site.  It's all in hydration(PUFF) , working the dough .  Good read.

I just use warm water and autolyse the dough.  Let it rest after 2/3 of the flour with the water for 20 minutes.

You want to make those panes of see through dough. They help create  and hold the bubbles of co2, that the yeast makes.


Hot oven + water + good stretchy dough = good pizza.

Your oven has the same problem as mine.  Temp only goes so high(mine 550,close). 

And the top doesn't brown.    Life is full of comprimises .  Our ovens aren't built for good pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Danes Dad,

Nice job. That's a great way to start off the new year.

I agree that it would be useful to report on what you did at the Canadave thread, for the reasons you mentioned. I think is a good idea for our members to see that Canadave's recipe will also work well with hand kneading. After all, the objective is to get as many people to try good recipes as possible.

After I return home, I plan to report on my pizza and the dough formulation I used, particularly since I "thinned" down the Canadave formulation to get to a thinner NY style. I will post at the Canadave thread, along with photos. I would say that my pizza was quite similar to yours. If you used 16 ounces of dough for a 16-inch pizza, then your crust would have bee thinner than mine, in which I used 21 ounces of dough for a 16-inch size. Also, I was working with a lot of toppings and an unfamiliar (gas) oven that could get no higher than 500 degrees F. Somehow, everything managed to work out fine nonetheless.

Peter

[Danes Dad]

Eric22 - I did burn the bottom of the first three as you can see in the pictures, but the I think the last one turned out well.  For the last one I did follow a different recipe and used High gluten flour rather than bread flour.  The problems were not with Randys recipe, but rather the alterations I made to it. 

Next time I make this pizza i'll put in under the broiler heat for 1 minute less.  The top is just a littler darker than I wanted. 

Danes Dad

[scott r]

Danes Dad, I'm not sure you even need to try my methods  any more.

It is so great to witness this forum helping to improve your pizza.  Your latest pies look AMAZING to me !!!!  They remind me of a few of the thicker NY street pizzas I had when I was visiting the big apple.

At this point it would be nice to get you a little more heat.  Most modern ovens have a secret series of buttons to push that will let you calibrate for anywhere from 25 to 50 degrees.  Do you still have the owners manual for you oven?  If not you might also be able to contact the manufacturer.  I have found that getting even a few extra degrees of heat can really improve the pizzas.

[Danes Dad]

Scottr - I have a fairly new electric GE.  I looked in the manual and found directions to adjust the thermostat.  A few simultaneous button presses will allow me to adjust the oven temperature up to 35F hotter.  Based on that I should be able to get the oven up to 585F.  That will be great for the pizza, but how about the oven?  It's still under warranty so now is the time to try.  My concern is it is not a self cleaning oven(its a basic model) so I don't know how high the oven is rated for.  I guess i'll find out soon.

Danes dad

[scott r]

I am no oven designer, but I am pretty sure you will be fine.  If the oven has the ability to be calibrated for the extra temp I am sure it was designed to handle the extra temp.

[Danes Dad]

I have finally perfected (I think) Randy's recipe.  The main reason the pie turned out so well is I followed his directions exactly.  I have since learned unless there is a good reason for alternation, don't do it.  I only made two deviations from his recipe.  First, the dough was hand kneaded.  This was done out of necessity as I don't have a mixer.  Second, the dough was parbaked.  This was done because in my limited experience it i've found it's the best way for my oven to produce a well browned crust without a charred bottom.

Wouldn't you know it, I finally make a great pizza and when I try to take a picture the battery dies .  So the only picture I can show is of my leftovers and they don't do the pizza justice.  Although, this pizza tasted just as well, if not better the next morning.  Reply #5 at this link shows the pie http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2812.0.html   

Danes Dad.