Author Topic: new to using a mixer  (Read 711 times)

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Offline Reek

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new to using a mixer
« on: October 29, 2014, 02:36:52 PM »
I dont have a mixer YET but i will be making a bigger dough batch than i normally do but on a mixer. so my question is this. is it best to mix for say 15 or 20 mins then rest and check the dough or should I try to mix for a whole period straight though.
this is my recipe i will be using. (any help would be great I rarely get to reply)
100% 500g
65%   325g
3%       15g
1%         5g                       


Offline David Esq.

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2014, 02:57:44 PM »
I dont have a mixer YET but i will be making a bigger dough batch than i normally do but on a mixer. so my question is this. is it best to mix for say 15 or 20 mins then rest and check the dough or should I try to mix for a whole period straight though.
this is my recipe i will be using. (any help would be great I rarely get to reply)
100% 500g
65%   325g
3%       15g
1%         5g                     
No matter what you say, I can't give you an answer because I've never used a mixer. BUT, if you want to get an good answer I am pretty sure you will need to give more detail.
1) How much dough are you planning to mix?
2) What kind of mixer are you using? The more specific you can be, I am sure, the better.

Take this worth a grain of salt, given my lack of experience, but I can't imagine that you need to mix anything more than 20 minutes, so the answer to your question may simply be, mix your dough until it is the consistency you want, and that should occur within x-y minutes without any need for pausing the mixer.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2014, 08:17:23 PM »
Since a 65% absorption dough is not an especially high absorption dough, you should be able to put the water in the bowl first, then add the salt to the water (no need to stir it in) then add the flour, yeast (if it's IDY) and start mixing at low speed until all of the water has been absorbed into the dough (you can't see any dry flour in the bowl) then add the oil and mix at low speed for 1 to 2-minutes, then, if possible, go to second speed to complete the dough mixing which should take about 8 to 10-minutes at medium speed or about 15-minutes at low speed. Don't try to overly develop the gluten as it isn't necessary since pizza dough is best under mixed at the mixer, allowing biochemical gluten development during the cold ferment process to do the work for you. This will also make it a lot easier on your mixer too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chaze215

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2014, 08:36:23 PM »
Tom, u talk about under mixing and letting biochemical gluten to develop via cold fermentation. Using AT Flour and a commercial mixer, what would you suggest the mix time to be? 5 minutes? Thanks in advance!
Chaz

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2014, 09:17:34 PM »
Chaze;
Using AT flour, and assuming a walk in cooler, target a finished dough temperature of 80 to 85F. When making the dough put the water in the bowl first, then add the flour, salt, and sugar (if used) DO NOT add the oil. Mix for 2 to 2.5-minutes at low speed, then pour in the oil and mix for another minute at low speed. Change to #2 speed and mix for 8 to 10-minutes. The resulting dough should have a smooth, creamy appearance. Take directly to the bench for scaling and balling, then place into dough boxes, lightly oil the top of the dough balls, and take to the cooler, cross stack for 2.5-hours (variable) then cover, after 18-hours the dough will be ready to use, but will keep for up to 72-hours in the cooler. To use the dough, remove from cooler, keeping covered, allow the dough to temper AT room temperature for 3-hours, or until the dough reaches 50F, then begin opening into skins by your preferred method (if you will be forming the dough skins by pressing you will most likely need to add something like PZ-44 to control dough memory, and in fact, a lower protein flour would be better suited to a press formed dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chaze215

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2014, 07:54:08 PM »
Chaze;
Using AT flour, and assuming a walk in cooler, target a finished dough temperature of 80 to 85F. When making the dough put the water in the bowl first, then add the flour, salt, and sugar (if used) DO NOT add the oil. Mix for 2 to 2.5-minutes at low speed, then pour in the oil and mix for another minute at low speed. Change to #2 speed and mix for 8 to 10-minutes. The resulting dough should have a smooth, creamy appearance. Take directly to the bench for scaling and balling, then place into dough boxes, lightly oil the top of the dough balls, and take to the cooler, cross stack for 2.5-hours (variable) then cover, after 18-hours the dough will be ready to use, but will keep for up to 72-hours in the cooler. To use the dough, remove from cooler, keeping covered, allow the dough to temper AT room temperature for 3-hours, or until the dough reaches 50F, then begin opening into skins by your preferred method (if you will be forming the dough skins by pressing you will most likely need to add something like PZ-44 to control dough memory, and in fact, a lower protein flour would be better suited to a press formed dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Thanks for the reply Tom! I'm surprised to read that you recommend AT to be mixed that much. From what I have read (from others more experienced than me) is that undermixing is better than overmixing AT Flour. This is one of the main reasons I switched to Full Strength because it is more forgiving. I currently mix the Full Strength for 8 minutes on speed 1 which has a smooth appearance at that mix time. Is switching to speed 2 a necessary step? I was told by the guy I bought my 20 quart Hobart from to "never mix high gluten flour on anything but speed 1" or I may risk damaging the gears. And that's the last thing I would want to do....lol
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Chaz

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2014, 11:36:12 PM »
Chaze;
It all depends upon your dough size. When I mix pizza doughs in a Hobart A-200 series mixer (using a reverse spiral dough arm) I put the water in the bowl first, then add the salt to the water followed by the flour, mix at low speed for about 2-minutes, or until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl, then add the oil and mix for another minute at low speed. If you dough is sized with 1,000 grams of flour you can then mix at 2nd. speed for about 8 to 10-minutes to finish the dough (gluten is nowhere fully developed) BUT if you sized your dough on 1500 grams of flour or more, the advice to mix only at first speed was good advice. If you are mixing at 1st. speed, you should mix for roughly 15-minutes, again, this is nowhere full gluten development.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chaze215

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2014, 04:38:22 PM »
Thank again for the advice Tom! So the mix time for AT and Full Strength should both be in the area of 15 minutes total? I'm currently doing about 10# of dough (15 doughballs @ 300g each) in my A-200. Is that too much strain on it? At what point do you add your yeast...with the flour (which is what I've been doing)? Thanks again!
Chaz

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2014, 05:13:32 PM »
Chaze;
It looks like you are using about 6-pounds of flour, with that flour weight in an A-200 mixer, I would not mix at anything but 1st. speed, and 15-minutes would be about right. As for adding the yeast, it all depends upon the type of yeast that you are using.
ADY: hydrate in a small amount of 100F water, allow to hydrate about 10-minutes and add to the water in the mixing bowl.
IDY: add it dry directly on top of the flour.
Compressed yeast: crumble it right on top of the flour just before you begin mixing.
Note: When you see me mixing a dough you will normally see me standing with my hand resting on top of the mixer, this is so I can monitor the temperature of the motor. If the motor begins getting hot, the dough is too big for your mixer, ditto if the mixer momentarily stalls during operation. If you allow the mixer to continue mixing until the thermal overload switch trips out the switch will get soft and begin tripping out at the slightest provocation, leading to a visit by your friendly mixer repair person.
When assessing the status of the dough during mixing, just look for that creamy color and the development of a smooth skin over the surface of the dough, they go hand in hand, this is your first indication that the dough has probably been sufficiently mixed.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Wazza McG

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2014, 06:52:59 PM »
Hi Tom

Can you explain the theory behind not mixing the oil in with the flour water yeast in the initial mix?  Thanks.

Warren
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!


Offline Pete-zza

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Offline RICO

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 07:26:39 PM »
Hi Tom

Can you explain the theory behind not mixing the oil in with the flour water yeast in the initial mix?  Thanks.

Warren

Oil repels water.  Mixing both oil and water at the same time would interfere with the hydration of the flour.  The flour needs to get wet to bubble.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2014, 08:42:25 PM »
A good many home bakers and some pizzeria operators report that the weather impacts the amount of water that they must add to their doughs, but research has shown that the weather, aside from temperature, has essentially no impact upon the dough absorption so we studied these claims and when we put the water and oil in the bowl together the oil almost immediately separated and floated to the top of the water, then when the flour was added it came into direct contact with the oil and the oil was absorbed into a portion of the flour thus negating that portion of the flour from producing gluten resulting in a difference in the feel of the dough which has been interpreted as a difference in dough absorption properties. In our testing we were able to reproduce the observations being reported, and when we developed an ingredient staging procedure to correct the problem we got consistent dough performance. This procedure which we call the delayed oil addition method is gaining wide acceptance in both the retail (pizzeria) and wholesale (commissary and frozen pizza) pizza industries.
When I'm teaching a class I ask how much gluten does flour contain? Answer: None
Flour contains proteins which when agitated in the presence of water forms what we call "gluten".
When flour is agitated in the presence of oil/fat it make a rue used in making a smooth gravy because the fat or oil inhibits the ability of those proteins to form gluten, hence you get a thick gravy without stringiness. Something to keep in mind for later this month.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2014, 08:52:42 PM »
By the way, great micrograph showing yeast cells. If you look carefully you can see individual cells and also budding cells as well as cells with daughter cells. The budding cells have what appears to be a small bump on it and the cells with a daughter cell have a more developed cell (still attached) that is called the daughter cell. With dough fermentation the budded cells will develop into daughter cells and then split off, but they will not bud to reproduce.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline MartyE

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2014, 09:24:02 PM »
Hi Tom,

I would like to understand more about the life cycle of yeast in dough. What prevents the daughter cell from reproducing? Will the parent produce multiple daughters?

The class last week was excellent! Thank you again.

Marty

Offline Chaze215

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2014, 10:31:41 PM »
Chaze;
It looks like you are using about 6-pounds of flour, with that flour weight in an A-200 mixer, I would not mix at anything but 1st. speed, and 15-minutes would be about right. As for adding the yeast, it all depends upon the type of yeast that you are using.
ADY: hydrate in a small amount of 100F water, allow to hydrate about 10-minutes and add to the water in the mixing bowl.
IDY: add it dry directly on top of the flour.
Compressed yeast: crumble it right on top of the flour just before you begin mixing.
Note: When you see me mixing a dough you will normally see me standing with my hand resting on top of the mixer, this is so I can monitor the temperature of the motor. If the motor begins getting hot, the dough is too big for your mixer, ditto if the mixer momentarily stalls during operation. If you allow the mixer to continue mixing until the thermal overload switch trips out the switch will get soft and begin tripping out at the slightest provocation, leading to a visit by your friendly mixer repair person.
When assessing the status of the dough during mixing, just look for that creamy color and the development of a smooth skin over the surface of the dough, they go hand in hand, this is your first indication that the dough has probably been sufficiently mixed.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Thanks again Tom! I have yet to keep my hand over the motor while mixing to check the temp of the motor. However, I noticed during the last batch I did, there was some hesitation while mixing which is no bueno. I think I should scale back on the amount I'm making at one time.
As far as the yeast is concerned, I havent noticed any difference using the IDY method when using ADY. I haven't noticed a difference in the final product when doing this. Are the differences subtle that I wouldn't notice?
Chaz

Offline Wazza McG

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2014, 05:35:13 PM »
As a newspaper printer we were always taught that ink (oil) & water tend to repel each other but do mix, when they mix an emulsion is formed.  Some emulsions are mixed so well that separating back to oil and water would fail to happen.  I imagine some oils emulsify more readily than others.  I will add the oil after the initial activation or rest period and see If I note any difference.  Thanks.
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline David Esq.

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2014, 06:04:33 PM »
My last pie, I hydrated flour and water and believe it or not I separately combined the oil and salt! Sprinkled the yeast on top of the dough and then scraped out the salt and oil and kneaded/squeezed it all together 3 minutes mix-knead/15 rest/4 minutes kneading. Dough came out nice. I even took the dough and wiped out the salt-oil container with it.

I would guess that coating the salt in oil is the worst thing you can do to ensure that it dissolves in the dough. And yet my pizza came out great. No clumps of salt. :)

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: new to using a mixer
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2014, 01:42:30 PM »
Using any type of mixer that we might use for mixing our doughs we cannot form a stable emulsion without the use of an emulsifier. As soon as the agitation stops the oil immediately begins to separate from the water and float to the top of the water where it comes into direct contact with the water, soaking into it with the earlier stated results. In order for yeast to propagate it needs a specific balance of nutrient (molasses is commercially used) and oxygen which is bubbled into the fermentation vats. I don't know if yeast cells can have multiple daughter cells at the same time, but I do know that in a dough system a bud can grow into a daughter cell and split, but it will not reproduce (bud) from that point on.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor