Author Topic: Let the experimenting begin...  (Read 5149 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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Let the experimenting begin...
« on: January 12, 2013, 09:19:16 PM »
I was excited to make some pizza with the AT tomorrow, but most of the recipes I came across on here had long fermentation periods....like Glutenboy's which is 4-8+ days. Did I miss some overnight fermentation recipes or does AT call for a longer fermentation? Thanks in advance!

Chaz
Chaz


scott123

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
Chaz, if I may ask, where did you get this from?

Time is relative  :) Less than a day has special considerations and more than 4 days has it's own potential issues, but, for 1 to 4, it's really just a matter of using the right amount of yeast and applying the right amount of coldness and heat (cold slows the down, heat speeds it up).  The key to yeast, for those that haven't worked with it extensively, is flexibility.  As long as you don't plan a party and keep a relatively open schedule, you can accommodate a dough that's ready early or late by making the pizza earlier or later (or ramping up the proofing temp a bit).  It's generally better to undershoot the mark and have dough that isn't quite doubled in time, than to overshoot it and have it double early. If it doubles too early, you can punch it down, but that's pretty advanced pizza making and runs the risk of overworking the gluten.

Short answer- find a two day recipe, increase the yeast by a bit (maybe 1/3 more), and be flexible. The only way to master yeast cultivation and predict time frames is to work with yeast over and over again- and to take plenty of notes, marking down all the variables (water temp, yeast age, air/flour temp, etc. etc.).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2013, 11:09:34 PM by scott123 »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2013, 09:38:47 PM »
Chaz, if I may ask, where did you get this from?

I got this at a supply a restaurant store in Brick. They also had Pillsbury high gluten as well.

I wasnt able to find a 2 day recipe, so I guess i will just make the dough during the week and make the pizza next weekend ;D Would you say a 4day ferment is optimal for AT?
Chaz

scott123

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2013, 11:15:07 PM »
Yup, Pillsbury high gluten is frequently found side by side with AT. Occasionally you find a  private label (basically an AT analog) next to them as well.

Here's my most recent recipe:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

For overnight, I'd bump the yeast up to 2 t. (.75%) and see how it goes. For AT, either dilute it with 33% all purpose, or bump the water to 65%.

Edit: used an uppercase T for yeast. Definitely lowercase.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2013, 03:49:43 PM by scott123 »

Offline Giggliato

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2013, 09:46:05 AM »
Good luck with your experiments! 50 lb bags are awesome!

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2013, 04:44:09 PM »
Thanks for the link Scott. Im going with your recipe for the 1st go around and see how I do. I only want to make 2 approximately 14" pizzas. Do you think 300g is too much? And im uncertain of your IDY to my ADY conversion. In any event, I will be making the dough later in the week for a weekend bake. Thanks!

Flour (100%):
Water (63.6%):
ADY (.56%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (168.91%):
Single Ball:
355.22 g  |  12.53 oz | 0.78 lbs
225.92 g  |  7.97 oz | 0.5 lbs
1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
7.1 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.58 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
3.55 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
600 g | 21.16 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
Chaz

scott123

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 02:01:08 AM »
Chaz, the easiest way to convert IDY to ADY is to go to Walmart and purchase the $3 bottle of IDY (red start quick rise) and throw the ADY away :)

300 g for a 14" translates into a thickness factor (TF) of .069, which would be too thin.  Start getting into the habit of using the dough calculator from the TF perspective, plugging in the TF and the percentages you want. How comfortable are you with stretching?  If stretch is your middle name ;) plug in .075, otherwise, plug in .085 until your comfort level increases.

Also don't forget the hydration correction for the higher protein flour (65% water from 63.6%) or the 66 AT/33 AP blend with 63.6% hydration.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 10:17:58 AM »
Chaz, the easiest way to convert IDY to ADY is to go to Walmart and purchase the $3 bottle of IDY (red start quick rise) and throw the ADY away :)

Chaz,

Scott's suggestion is a good one but in the interest of educating our members about conversion of one kind of yeast to another, you might want to use the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm. If you study the table, you will be able to see how the conversions work mathematically.

Peter

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 07:24:37 PM »
Thanks for the reminder about the hydration %...I forgot about that. I would pick up some IDY but I have a lot of ADY that I picked up from Costco. ..lol So I tried to use the conversion table but scotts recipe is for 3 17" pizzas and im only looking to make 2 14" pizzas. Is there a way to make this conversion with some simple math?

Im glad you also brought up the TF. I have always seen it on the dough calculator but was unfamiliar with it so I never used it. I feel my stretching skills are decent but not to the level of a lot of members on here. How do u determine what the TF should be and when u do have a TF in mind how do you know if you have achieved it?
Chaz

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 07:39:20 PM »
Is there a way to make this conversion with some simple math?

Chaz,

To go from ADY to IDY, you reduce the amount of ADY by 25%, by weight. So, if you are using 0.56% ADY, reducing that by 25% gives you 0.42% IDY, that is, 0.56 -(0.25 x 0.56) = 0.42% IDY.

Peter


Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 08:39:00 PM »
Chaz,

To go from ADY to IDY, you reduce the amount of ADY by 25%, by weight. So, if you are using 0.56% ADY, reducing that by 25% gives you 0.42% IDY, that is, 0.56 -(0.25 x 0.56) = 0.42% IDY.

Peter

Thanks for that explanation Pete. Im looking to go from IDY to ADY...so I would just add 25% which would come to .7%?
Chaz

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2013, 08:51:03 PM »
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 08:53:18 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2013, 08:58:32 PM »
Thanks for that explanation Pete. Im looking to go from IDY to ADY...so I would just add 25% which would come to .7%?

Chaz,

When you are going from IDY to ADY, you increase the amount of IDY by a third, or 33.3%. So, using my last example, if you start with 0.42% IDY and want to go to ADY, you increase 0.42% by 33.3%, or 0.42 + (0.42 x 0.333) = 0.56% ADY. If you were using 0.56% IDY and wanted to go to ADY, you would use 0.56 + (0.56 x 0.333) = 0.75% IDY, not 0.70%. In your earlier reply, you indicated 0.56% ADY in your dough formulation. If I got your numbers wrong, let me know and I will give you the conversion.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:19:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2013, 09:12:23 PM »
Sorry for the confusion Pete. The .56% that you see was the same % scott has in his recipe for IDY for 3 17" pies. My problem was trying to convert IDY to ADY and for only 2 14" pies.

Thanks for taking to time to show me the math, I appreciate it!
Chaz

scott123

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2013, 09:37:57 PM »
Im glad you also brought up the TF. I have always seen it on the dough calculator but was unfamiliar with it so I never used it. I feel my stretching skills are decent but not to the level of a lot of members on here. How do u determine what the TF should be and when u do have a TF in mind how do you know if you have achieved it?

Use the dough calcultor, plug in the desired TF- .085 if you're still developing your stretching skills, plug in the size of the pizza- 14", and all the other values.  Make the dough using the numbers the calculator gives you and stretch it to 14".  As you're first starting out, a ruler can be helpful. You can also gauge the size of your skins by how well they fit on your peel and stone, and, when they come out of the oven, in your pan.  My wood peel and pan are 18" and my stone is 17" so if I almost fill the peel with the skin, I know I've hit my desired TF.  It takes a while, but eventually stretching the skin to the right dimension becomes second nature.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2013, 09:46:58 PM »
Thanks again scott. Below is the converted recipe using, ADY, TF of .08 (which I went with since it is between .075 and .085...lol) and the increase of hydration. Thanks again!
PS...I have a friend of mine looking into getting me a hunk of 1/2" A36 steel. So im on my way to some serious experimenting then  ;D

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
ADY (.75%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (170.5%):
Single Ball:
409.54 g  |  14.45 oz | 0.9 lbs
266.2 g  |  9.39 oz | 0.59 lbs
3.07 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.81 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
7.17 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
8.19 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
698.26 g | 24.63 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = 0.08
349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs
Chaz

scott123

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 12:53:05 AM »
Sounds good, Chaz.  Size that steel plate carefully- remember, touching the back wall and almost touching the door. Every fraction of an inch counts.

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 06:23:04 AM »
Sounds good, Chaz.  Size that steel plate carefully- remember, touching the back wall and almost touching the door. Every fraction of an inch counts.

Looks like I will be going with 17" x 21 1/2" x 1/2" which will basically take up an entire rack. Do you have an idea what this might cost? Only reason I ask is because i know my friend wont charge me and I want to give him $$ anyway.
Chaz

Offline bfguilford

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 08:54:52 AM »
Chaz: That's a big heavy piece of steel (around 53 lbs by my calculation). Best make sure that your rack (and back) can handle it. Any reason not to go square? My 17x17 is 42 lbs (still a load).

Barry
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: Let the experimenting begin...
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2013, 10:29:25 AM »
Chaz: That's a big heavy piece of steel (around 53 lbs by my calculation). Best make sure that your rack (and back) can handle it. Any reason not to go square? My 17x17 is 42 lbs (still a load).

Barry

I was just taking scott's suggestion of almost touching the back wall and just about touching the door. Do u not agree with that?
Chaz