Author Topic: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?  (Read 1993 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline iareto42

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
Is High Gluten Flour the ONLY type that will produce exceptional tasting thin crust NY Style Pizza?

There has to be some successful recipes that use AP or Bread Flour.  Lets hear some of them!


scott123

  • Guest
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 12:07:18 AM »
High gluten flour: 13.3-4% protein
Bread Flour:  12.5%-13.3% protein
All Purpose: 8-12.5% protein

Bread flour, real 13ish% protein bread flour, makes the best NY style pizza possible (imo).  I've made plenty of pizza with 11.8% protein, and while it's far from ideal, it's passable for a home product.  For a commercial product, though, the absolute lowest you want to go is 12%. The protein in flour is what forms gluten, and gluten defines the puffy crust of pizza. Every .1% you go beneath 12%, you're sacrificing the quality of the pie.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 12:12:26 AM by scott123 »

Offline ZekeTheCat

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 11:50:16 AM »
I've used this recipe with good results for a 14" dia thin crust NY style pie :

310 gr (about 2 C) - King Arthur All Purpose Unbleached Flour
2 tsp - Sugar
1 tsp - Salt
3/4 tsp - IDY
1 tsp - Veg Oil (or bacon grease)
175 gr (about 3/4 C) - cool water (about 56% HR give or take)

Mix and knead for 8 minutes on speed 1 - KA mixer w/ dough hook - the dough will be somewhat stiff but will become more stretchable after fermentation in the fridge.

Let slow rise and fermentation for 24 to 48 hrs in fridge (@ 40 deg F more or less)- take out of fridge several hours before using to warm up and become more pliable for stretching.

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 10:18:39 PM »
310 gr (about 2 C) - King Arthur All Purpose Unbleached Flour

King Arthur Unbleached All-Purpose Flour

Quote
King Arthur unbleached, unbromated all-purpose flour (11.7% protein)

Iareto, I'm not trying to be mean here or beat you over the head with this information, but you won't find any member here who's happy with 11% protein flour NY style pizza.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11399
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 10:24:30 PM »
Is it VWG time yet?  :)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

scott123

  • Guest
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 01:27:34 AM »
Is it VWG time yet?  :)

Last resort, Bob. Last resort :)

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22449
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 10:08:50 AM »
iareto,

I have several thoughts on this matter.

First, if you research the evolution of the NY style pizza, you will find that in the early days of such evolution, and for many years thereafter, it was common to use all-purpose flour for the NY style. There are no doubt some pizza operators in NYC to this day that still use all-purpose flour to make the NY style, but their numbers have greatly dwindled over the last many years. There are simply better flours and better dough preparation and management methods available to today's NY style pizza maker. But, if you are interested, you might want to read the thread on how the NY style of pizza evolved over the decades, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.0.html. You can start at a fairly basic level with my post at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148155.html#msg148155, but to give the subject its due, you will perhaps want to read the rest of the thread. For example, you may want to read the posts referenced in Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.msg148840.html#msg148840. It may be that you can fit yourself into the place and time in history where you are able to find a way to make effective use of your all-purpose flour where you are in the South Pacific.

Second, for possible inspiration and guidance, you might want to scan the non-Lehmann NY style dough formulations as compiled at Replies 1-3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.msg110289.html#msg110289. You will find a few formulations in that compilation that are based on using all-purpose flour, such as the ones by Pizza Shark (a former pizza professional) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3736.msg31160.html#msg31160 and by Chau at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10789.msg96280.html#msg96280, but by and large you will see that the predominant flours for the NY style are bread flour and high-gluten flour. And this is not limited to only the members' formulations or reflect members' biases. The same pattern exists for the dough formulations of people off of the forum, including many professionals. I haven't checked every dough formulation in the abovereferenced collection, but you are free to do to see if you can find that hidden nugget that might help you achieve success with all-purpose flour. For example, the solution or improvement might not lie in the particular type of flour used but rather something like the use of a preferment or other method not usually associated with the NY style.

Third, unlike scott123, I don't have particular objections to using vital wheat gluten (VWG), or other additives for that matter. I have used VWG on many occasions to boost the protein content of flours. In most cases, it was because I did not have the proper flour with the desired protein content to begin with. I would rather avoid the use of VWG since a flour enhanced with VWG is not the same as a flour with the higher protein content to begin with. Also, there are some people who simply cannot stand the taste of VWG. Moreover, I have also found that the VWG "jumps" can't be too great. For example, going from all-purpose flour to bread flour or from bread flour to high-gluten flour may be acceptable but not going from all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour. My recollection is that member November proved the latter point.

To give you an example of how all-purpose flour might be improved for the NY style, you might want to take a look at Replies 204 and 205, starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15668.html#msg15668. What I described there was a situation where I was given "lemons" and I tried to make "lemonade". To do this, I decided to use VWG and dairy whey. The posts are self-explanatory. However, if VWG and dairy whey are something that might appeal to you, it may well be that you will have the same kinds of problems locating sources of VWG and dairy whey as you have locating bread flour or high-gluten flour in the South Pacific where you are located. Or you might find that the cost of the final product is too high. The only change I would make to the above posts, and specifically Reply 205, is that I would use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/ to calculate how much VWG to use to achieve the desired protein content for the all-purpose flour/VWG blend. That tool simply produces more accurate results than the simple method described in Reply 205.

Peter

Offline Scagnetti

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2013, 01:32:45 PM »
I've had good luck with this recipe for a 16" pie.

Reply #65
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

KA bread flour (100%), 12.10 ounces (about 2 3/4 c.)
VWG (2.5 %), 0.30 oz. (about 1 T.)
Water (63%), 7.65 oz. (about 7/8 c.), plus an additional 1 T.
Salt (1.75%), 0.21 oz. (about 1 t.)
Oil (1.0%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)

And I used this food processor technique:

Reply #31
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442

Offline jkb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 470
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2013, 05:28:50 AM »
With a long cold ferment or the use of a sourdough starter, AP flour will easily make a better crust than 90% of the pizzerias in the world.  More gluten will make it more better.

Offline pythonic

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2337
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Crest Hill, IL
  • Pizza......its what's for dinner!
Re: Is there No Great Tasting NY-Style Pizza that uses All Purpose Flour?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2013, 06:13:52 PM »
This AP flour recipe is decent.



If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.


 

pizzapan