Starter in a Commercial Setting

[hotsawce]

Just curious if anyone here would know how to utilize a starter in a commercial setting, especially if it needed to be kept in a temperature controlled refrigeration unit.

For example, say a restaurant makes X amount of dough every day. How would one keep adequate amount of active, consistent starter to use in the dough for service?

[Sqid]

I'm using a natural starter in a commercial setting, albeit very small (20-30 pies a day).  I use a 50% mix of flour and water which I keep in the fridge.  We add about 10% to the dough mix.

Use a big bucket of starter so that it wont get phased too much if you need to make an extra batch of dough one day. 

Every day when we make the dough we replace what we've taken out and let it come to life for about 2 hours before we put it back in the fridge.  However it can get pretty sleepy living in the fridge so every Monday it gets let out into the room for the day and gets multiple feedings to revitalise it. 

'Bakerboy' on another thread suggested using part of yesterdays dough for the new batch.  Seems like a good idea but I never went down that path.

[hotsawce]

Awesome. Thanks so much for the insight. Before you add starter to the dough mix, do you add it cold straight from the fridge or do you let it come to room temp?

And this can be done daily so long as one takes a day of the week to let the starter revitalize for a bit at room temp?

I'm using a natural starter in a commercial setting, albeit very small (20-30 pies a day).  I use a 50% mix of flour and water which I keep in the fridge.  We add about 10% to the dough mix.

Use a big bucket of starter so that it wont get phased too much if you need to make an extra batch of dough one day. 

Every day when we make the dough we replace what we've taken out and let it come to life for about 2 hours before we put it back in the fridge.  However it can get pretty sleepy living in the fridge so every Monday it gets let out into the room for the day and gets multiple feedings to revitalise it. 

'Bakerboy' on another thread suggested using part of yesterdays dough for the new batch.  Seems like a good idea but I never went down that path.

[Sqid]

First thing in the morning we get the starter out and measure the required amount (say 500ml).

We then mix this with 500ml of water and about 200g of flour. Remember this 500ml of water and 200g of flour have to be subtracted from your final mix.   The reason I put so much water in it is to bring it up to a working temperature.

At the same time we feed the motherload bucket (250ml water and 250g flour).

Both sit on the counter for about an hour.  We can see some activity by then.  We then mix. 5 mins with 2/3 of the flour, 15 mins autolyse rest.  10 mins final mix. 30 mins rest. Ball and straight into fridge for the next day.  At this point the bucket also goes back in the fridge.

It can be done.   Just takes a lot of fiddling with to suit your schedule and starter!

Best of luck.

[JD]

First thing in the morning we get the starter out and measure the required amount (say 500ml).

We then mix this with 500ml of water and about 200g of flour. Remember this 500ml of water and 200g of flour have to be subtracted from your final mix.   The reason I put so much water in it is to bring it up to a working temperature.

At the same time we feed the motherload bucket (250ml water and 250g flour).

Both sit on the counter for about an hour.  We can see some activity by then.  We then mix. 5 mins with 2/3 of the flour, 15 mins autolyse rest.  10 mins final mix. 30 mins rest. Ball and straight into fridge for the next day.  At this point the bucket also goes back in the fridge.

It can be done.   Just takes a lot of fiddling with to suit your schedule and starter!

Best of luck.

This is interesting, I've often wondered if it would be possible to use a starter in a commercial setting. Thanks for the information Sqid.

Do you see any reason this would not work if you were doing 2,3,4x the amount of pizza you're doing now?

[dellavecchia]

Do you see any reason this would not work if you were doing 2,3,4x the amount of pizza you're doing now?

There are machines which help with large amounts of starter:

http://www.tmbbaking.com/fl80.html

John

[Sqid]

No reason to think it couldn't be scaled up.

Always you need to be aware of how strong/active the starter is so you need someone who realises what is going on if your doughs are getting over proofed or not rising.  Having said that my system seems to have been taking pretty good care of itself for thge last few months.

The levan machine is very interesting.   I've been thinking about such a contraption.  It needs cleaning once a week so it isn't a slam dunk.   I would like to see something that also measures C02 emission so you can accurately see the point of peak activity and maybe the machine could incorporate that into its functionality.   Great machine for a single large operation but no good in a chain style operation. 

[hotsawce]

Thank you for the insight.

So, you've basically calculated the amount of starter you need for the dough via bakers percentages. That's taken from the bucket, and you feed it (so at this point it's more than the required amount?)

So I guess the question I'm asking is, are you
a) putting in the 500ml of required starter plus what you've fed it (500ml water and 200g flour.) or
b) After the starter is fed, taking 500ml of the total fed amount?

Thanks again!

First thing in the morning we get the starter out and measure the required amount (say 500ml).

We then mix this with 500ml of water and about 200g of flour. Remember this 500ml of water and 200g of flour have to be subtracted from your final mix.   The reason I put so much water in it is to bring it up to a working temperature.

At the same time we feed the motherload bucket (250ml water and 250g flour).

Both sit on the counter for about an hour.  We can see some activity by then.  We then mix. 5 mins with 2/3 of the flour, 15 mins autolyse rest.  10 mins final mix. 30 mins rest. Ball and straight into fridge for the next day.  At this point the bucket also goes back in the fridge.

It can be done.   Just takes a lot of fiddling with to suit your schedule and starter!

Best of luck.

[dellavecchia]

When manually scaling a starter for production sizes larger than normal, you need to do it in stages for optimum performance. So if you want to scale your starter to 4x the amount you normally use, just dumping the amount of flour you need into the bucket will be too much food for the yeast to consume. You feed the starter in increments without discarding - usually in three stages - to get to the desired amount. Reference: Hammelman and Suas.

John

[Sqid]

When manually scaling a starter for production sizes larger than normal, you need to do it in stages for optimum performance. So if you want to scale your starter to 4x the amount you normally use, just dumping the amount of flour you need into the bucket will be too much food for the yeast to consume. You feed the starter in increments without discarding - usually in three stages - to get to the desired amount. Reference: Hammelman and Suas.

John

Not so.  If you use a big bucket of starter.
Hotsawcwe  (a)

[dellavecchia]

Not so.  If you use a big bucket of starter.
Hotsawcwe  (a)

Correct. My post was about scaling up to a need beyond.

John

[hotsawce]

Thanks guys. Learn something new every day!